Paul GTP Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 I hope i can get some help from you guys, If not i'm going to kill my P/S system. I have replaced everything, Pump, o-rings, rack, pressure line, return line, There are NO leaks, however air is getting to the system somehow. I'm following bleeding procedure precisely, but when i'm turnig wheels quickly from side to side (more than 1000 times ) bubles are comming from P/S Reservoir. I'm out of ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 Was the rack pre-filled and bled when you got it? Are you sure you don't have too much fluid in it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul GTP Posted January 23, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 Was the rack pre-filled and bled when you got it? Are you sure you don't have too much fluid in it? Tell you the truth, I have no idea. To much fluid ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul GTP Posted January 23, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 Also when i'm turnig wheels slowly from side to side. There are No bubles, strange Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 Check the fluid level in the resorvoir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul GTP Posted January 23, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 Fluid level is good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPRACER Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 You have to turn the steering with the front wheels OFF the ground and the engine NOT running. Is this the way you are doing it? If this does not work, then there is a special adapter you can get that uses a hand held vacuum pump. I work at a dealership and have used it lots of times. Some vehicles are harder than others to bleed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 How is the air going to get worked out with the engine off? The pump should be pumping pushing fluid through to get the air out. Every manual I have seen says to start the car and let it warm up to temp. before bleeding. With the wheels on the ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul GTP Posted January 23, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 Chilton Car Manual says to do it with engine off, and wheels off the ground Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPRACER Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 If you start the engine before you bleed the system You just create air pockets in the steering rack (gear) sometimes they are hard to remove. With any steering repair, always bleed before you start the engine. Makes life real easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 I guess I need new manuals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPRACER Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 I guess I need new manuals. Not really, a lot of even the GM manuals that I use at work say to start the engine, but what some generic manuals do not say is that if you do start the engine you may need a "special" tool a vacuum pump to get the air out. I know from practical experience that the easiest way to bleed a system is to not start the car, and bleed with the wheels off the ground. How many people who write the manuals have actually even worked on a car? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul GTP Posted January 23, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 I guess I need new manuals. Not really, a lot of even the GM manuals that I use at work say to start the engine, but what some generic manuals do not say is that if you do start the engine you may need a "special" tool a vacuum pump to get the air out. I know from practical experience that the easiest way to bleed a system is to not start the car, and bleed with the wheels off the ground. How many people who write the manuals have actually even worked on a car? So what would you suggest ?. Could a new(rebuilt) rack be defective??? Is there a way to check a rack without attaching P/S pump (Vaccum pump ???) My exact problem was that air was somehow getting in to the system creating preasure on the P/S Reservoir o-ring, and it was pushing P/S fluid out directly in to the timing belt cover (you know what that means) I don't want to be changing timing $$$ belt more often than necessery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPRACER Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 That sounds more like a line or a fitting problem to me, even if a line or fitting is not leaking fluid it can still leak air and cause a fluid leak at a different place in the system. Make sure everything is tight and that the lines are routed properly. what year is your car? I'm assuming you have the DOHC engine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul GTP Posted January 23, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 1991 GTP DOHC 5Speed Is it possible for a rack to leak Air at the inner tie rods ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul GTP Posted January 24, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 I also checked all my lines separately with vac pump. o-rings ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPRACER Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 I have seen the o-ring between the pump resivoir and the pump cause problems before, but it's usually a fitting leak. I can do a quick check for bulletins/recalls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPRACER Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 I did find this document this is pretty cool.. Document ID # 502767 1991 Pontiac Grand Prix -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ILLUSTRATED STEERING SYSTEM BLEED PROCEDURE #38-30-01A - (03/16/1993) ********************************************************************** REVISION 12/09/93 THIS BULLETIN IS BEING REVISED TO ADD THE 1994 MODEL YEAR AND CHANGE THE ARTWORK. PREVIOUS DIVISIONAL PUBLICATION NUMBERS WERE: BUICK 93-3-5 4/04/93 CADILLAC T-93-76 5/12/93 CHEVROLET 93-146-3B 3/29/93 GM OF CANADA 93-3-102 5/05/93 OLDSMOBILE 2-93-59 5/14/93 ********************************************************************** SUBJECT: ILLUSTRATED STEERING SYSTEM BLEED PROCEDURE MODELS: 1994 AND PRIOR PASSENGER CARS AND LIGHT DUTY TRUCKS THIS BULLETIN SUPERSEDES THE STEERING SYSTEM BLEED PROCEDURE IN CORPORATE BULLETIN 803201R. THE STEERING SYSTEM IN 1994 AND PRIOR MODEL YEAR CARS AND LIGHT DUTY TRUCKS SHOULD BE BLED AFTER ANY OF THE FOLLOWING: - A POWER STEERING COMPONENT IS REPLACED. - A FLUID LINE IS DISCONNECTED. - A CUSTOMER COMMENTS ON STEERING SYSTEM NOISE. BLEEDING AIR FROM THE STEERING SYSTEM SHOULD BE DONE IN ORDER TO PREVENT PUMP DAMAGE, ENSURE PROPER OPERATION, AND TO ELIMINATE STEERING SYSTEM NOISE. THE ATTACHED ILLUSTRATION PRESENTS A PICTORIAL ILLUSTRATION OF THE BLEED PROCEDURE. THIS NEW PROCEDURE REPLACES PREVIOUS STEERING SYSTEM BLEED PROCEDURES. (NOTE TO TAS REVIEWER: BULLETIN CONTENT IS PRIMARILY PICTORIAL. THE FOLLOWING IS THE TEXT-ONLY PORTION.) WHEN TO BLEED * AFTER ANY COMPONENT REPLACEMENT * AFTER DISCONNECTING FLUID LINE * IN CASE OF STEERING SYSTEM NOISE WHY BLEED? * TO PREVENT PUMP DAMAGE * TO ENSURE PROPER SYSTEM OPERATION * TO STOP STEERING SYSTEM NOISE BEFORE BLEEDING: INSPECT STEERING SYSTEM. CHECK AND CORRECT AS NEEDED: * HOSES MUST NOT TOUCH ANY OTHER PART OF VEHICLE (STEERING SYSTEM NOISE COULD BE CAUSED BY HOSE TOUCHING FRAME, BODY OR ENGINE) * ALL HOSE CONNECTIONS MUST BE TIGHT (LOOSE CONNECTIONS MIGHT NOT LEAK BUT COULD ALLOW AIR INTO SYSTEM) HOW TO BLEED: 1. SWITCH IGNITION OFF. 2. TURN STEERING WHEEL FULL LEFT. 3. FILL FLUID RESERVOIR TO "FULL COLD" LEVEL. LEAVE CAP OFF. 4. RAISE FRONT WHEELS OFF GROUND. 5. WITH ASSISTANT CHECKING FLUID LEVEL AND CONDITION, TURN STEERING WHEEL LOCK TO LOCK AT LEAST 20 TIMES. ENGINE REMAINS OFF. * ON SYSTEMS WITH LONG RETURN LINES OR FLUID COOLERS, TURN STEERING WHEEL LOCK TO LOCK AT LEAST 40 TIMES. * TRAPPED AIR MAY CAUSE FLUID TO OVERFLOW. THOROUGHLY CLEAN ANY SPILLED FLUID TO ALLOW FOR LEAK CHECK. * KEEP FLUID LEVEL AT "FULL COLD". 6. WHILE TURNING WHEEL, CHECK FLUID CONSTANTLY * NO AIR BUBBLES ARE ALLOWED. * FOR ANY SIGN OF BUBBLES, RECHECK CONNECTIONS. REPEAT STEP 5. 7. START ENGINE. WITH ENGINE IDLING, MAINTAIN FLUID LEVEL. REINSTALL CAP. 8. RETURN WHEELS TO CENTER. LOWER FRONT WHEELS TO GROUND. 9. KEEP ENGINE RUNNING FOR TWO MINUTES. 10.TURN STEERING WHEEL IN BOTH DIRECTIONS. VERIFY: * SMOOTH POWER ASSIST. * NOISELESS OPERATION. * PROPER FLUID LEVEL. * NO SYSTEM LEAKS. * PROPER FLUID CONDITION (NO BUBBLES, NO FOAM, NO DISCOLORATION) 11.IF ALL PROPER CONDITIONS APPLY, PROCEDURE IS COMPLETE. 12.IF ANY PROBLEM REMAINS, SEE "SPECIAL CONDITIONS". SPECIAL CONDITIONS * FLUID - FOAM OR BUBBLES IN FLUID FLUID MUST BE COMPLETELY FREE OF BUBBLES. IN STEP 5, BE ALERT TO PERIODIC BUBBLES THAT COULD INDICATE A LOOSE CONNECTION OR LEAKY O-RING SEAL. - DISCOLORED FLUID (MILKY, OPAQUE OR LIGHT TAN COLOR) SWITCH IGNITION OFF. WAIT TWO MINUTES. RECHECK LOSE CONNECTIONS. REPEAT STEPS 7-10. IF CONDITION STILL EXISTS, REPLACE O-RING SEALS AND HOSECLAMPS. FILL SYSTEM AND REPEAT BLEED PROCEDURE. * NOISE - PUMP WHINE OR GROAN WITH ENGINE RUNNING, RECHECK HOSES FOR POSSIBLE CONTACT WITH FRAME, BODY OR ENGINE. IF NO CONTACT IS FOUND, FOLLOW EITHER METHOD BELOW TO COOL DOWN FLUID AND REPRESSURIZE SYSTEM. METHOD 1: NORMAL COOL DOWN SWITCH ENGINE OFF. WAIT FOR SYSTEM TO COOL. METHOD 2: PARTIAL FLUID REPLACEMENT SWITCH ENGINE OFF. USE A SUCTION DEVICE TO REMOVE FLUID FROM RESERVOIR. REFILL WITH COOL, CLEAN FLUID. INSTALL RESERVOIR CAP. AFTER EITHER METHOD OF COOLING, START ENGINE AND ALLOW ENGINE TO COME UP TO OPERATING TEMPERATURE. IF NOISE PERSISTS, REMOVE AND REPLACE POWER STEERING PUMP. REPEAT BLEED PROCEDURE FOLLOWING PUMP REPLACEMENT. SERVICE PARTS INFORMATION P/N DESCRIPTION SIZE 1052884 POWER STEERING FLUID 16 OZ. 1050017 POWER STEERING FLUID 32 OZ. 12345866 COLD CLIMATE POWER STEERING FLUID 16 OZ. 12345867 COLD CLIMATE POWER STEERING FLUID 32 OZ. PARTS ARE CURRENTLY AVAILABLE FROM GMSPO. FIGURES: 1 Figure 1 GENERAL MOTORS BULLETINS ARE INTENDED FOR USE BY PROFESSIONAL TECHNICIANS, NOT A "DO-IT-YOURSELFER". THEY ARE WRITTEN TO INFORM THOSE TECHNICIANS OF CONDITIONS THAT MAY OCCUR ON SOME VEHICLES, OR TO PROVIDE INFORMATION THAT COULD ASSIST IN THE PROPER SERVICE OF A VEHICLE. PROPERLY TRAINED TECHNICIANS HAVE THE EQUIPMENT, TOOLS, SAFETY INSTRUCTIONS AND KNOW-HOW TO DO A JOB PROPERLY AND SAFELY. IF A CONDITION IS DESCRIBED, DO NOT ASSUME THAT THE BULLETIN APPLIES TO YOUR VEHICLE, OR THAT YOUR VEHICLE WILL HAVE THAT CONDITION. SEE A GENERAL MOTORS DEALER SERVICING YOUR BRAND OF GENERAL MOTORS VEHICLE FOR INFORMATION ON WHETHER YOUR VEHICLE MAY BENEFIT FROM THE INFORMATION. COPYRIGHT 1993 GENERAL MOTORS CORPORATION. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. GM bulletins are intended for use by professional technicians, NOT a "do-it-yourselfer". They are written to inform these technicians of conditions that may occur on some vehicles, or to provide information that could assist in the proper service of a vehicle. Properly trained technicians have the equipment, tools, safety instructions, and know-how to do a job properly and safely. If a condition is described, DO NOT assume that the bulletin applies to your vehicle, or that your vehicle will have that condition. See your GM dealer for information on whether your vehicle may benefit from the information. WE SUPPORT VOLUNTARY TECHNICIAN CERTIFICATION © Copyright General Motors Corporation. All Rights Reserved. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Document ID # 502767 1991 Pontiac Grand Prix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul GTP Posted January 24, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 I have seen the o-ring between the pump resivoir and the pump cause problems before, but it's usually a fitting leak. I can do a quick check for bulletins/recalls. It would be greatly appreciated That one is fixed, however the rest remains ( :guns: P/S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul GTP Posted January 24, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 It is Cool, Thank You Muchly :worship: :guns: O-Rings, GM wants 6 CDN$ for 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPRACER Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 Didn't even notice that you were a fellow Cannucklehead like myself. Too bad the dollar sucks and most of the goodies are south of the border. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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