Guest TurboSedan Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 well this morning i reinstalled the turbo, plugged the TGP/5-speed memcal in the ECM and started the car up. it started right up and so i drove home (about 4 blocks away). i parked the car and revved the engine a little to hear how it sounded (sounded great). then i revved it to about 5000 RPM and it still sounded great but it just completely died.....and now i can't get it to start at all...it won't even try :?: so far i've: - checked fuel pressure and that was good - ~43psi with key on/engine off and between 40-50psi while cranking - checked a plug and it was wet with gas so it's definately getting fuel. - checked for spark with a timing light and and double checked with an alligator clip-to-exhaust manifold and i AM getting spark although the spark seemed rather weak looking. - swapped out the coilpacks & ICM for an extra set i had in my garage. no change. - checked codes - i'm only getting code 12. what the fuck? did my CPS just fail or what? wouldn't i get a code for that? any ideas on what this could be? any suggestions or ideas welcome, this thing is frustrating the hell out of me right now :? my Cutlass -> <-me TIA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sl3196 Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Battery? Fuses? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Dubya Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 did you put in a new crank sensor when the engine was out?? I don't think that will send an error code.. be careful if you remove it, they have a tendency to break off. they are less than $20 at Advance and other places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maybe2fast Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 you spliced in the crank sensor did't you? I would go there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 battery isn't an issue, it is connected and the car cranks over fine but no start at all. the CPS is 227,000 miles old.....i think i am going to buy one today and swap it out. what a PITA but at least it should be a little easier to access since i have a Getrag. thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 you spliced in the crank sensor did't you? I would go there... trust me that splice is 100% good but i did check that already by wiggling the splice around a little while my brother cranked it over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 if not sabatoge from Jay and his chip lol well for the 4 blocks i drove it home it ran awesome. only getting 4-5psi right now but it definately felt faster than it was last fall (i haven't really 'gotten on it' yet though). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 well fuck. i attempted to get the old CPS out and it was so brittle that all i did was break it apart i can't even get it out with a pliers now. i can spin it in the bore but it won't come out. i'm going to try to drill a pilot hole into the old CPS with my Dremel and then screw a wood screw into it and then hopefully i can extract that SOB. NAPA has a CPS in stock for $20 but the weather just turned to crap so i'll have to work on it tomarrow. PITA!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sl3196 Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Well damn it! Stupid wind and snow eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Dubya Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Well that probably explains it then Josh.. my first TGP was stalling all the time and not running properly. Granted the chip had something to do with that, but when I installed my TG160 I tuned it up properly, changed all the necessary components including the CPS. It never ran so strong after I did it. Mine snapped in half when I removed it. I have a little bit to work with though so I pryed it out with a screwdriver. maybe try a magnetic tool to extract it, otherwise good luck with the screw. Some people on here have suggested pushing it in and letting it sit inside the engine, I don't know how you feel about that, but I don't think you want to pull that engine/drop the pan again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 well i have a new CPS sitting here and it will go in tomarrow. i think the O-ring on the old CPS is what is making it stick. i sure wish i had replaced this while it was on the engine stand if this thing doesn't start after i get the new CPS in i'm going to flip lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 if it doesn't work out (which i hope it does) i'll come pick up the car and leave a check for $1000 in your name! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 I doubt that's going to do anything, since you said you are getting spark. Seems to me if the CPS is acting up there would be no spark, not weak spark. Does it try to fire at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 i just got done working on it again. i managed to remove the old CPS and i replaced it with the new one. it still won't start. i am completely stumpified. just a recap: i installed the turbo & the TGP/5-speed memcal this morning. it fired right up and sounded good (albeit loud). i inspected things closely underhood while letting the engine warm up a little and then drove home 4 blocks away. oil pressure & volt gauges looked good. it ran great and sounded good, as well as a noticeable power increase even with 4-5 psi and i didn't even get on it. so i get home, back into my parking space and it's idling just fine. so i revved to ~3500 RPM while checking the gauges and then a quick rev up to ~5500 RPM and the car just sputtered and quickly died. now it just won't start at all. it turns over but it just won't even try to start. so i: - initially thought it might be out of gas (i have a wacky fuel gauge i don't trust) so i went to the C-store and bought about 2.5 gallons of premium and dumped it in the tank. still no start. - checked fuel pressure on fuel rail with a gauge- 43psi KO/EO and between 40-50 psi while cranking. so it's defiately getting fuel. - removed #6 spark plug - it was wet with fuel as i suspected it would be. then i put the spark plug boot back on the plug and grounded it out on the exhaust manifold and watched it while my brother cranked the engine...it's definatley getting a good hot spark from what i can tell. - swapped out my coilpacks & ICM for an extra set i have in the garage. still no start. so i have fuel & spark... - i checked all fuses and all were good. - replaced the CPS with a new one. no changes. fwiw the new CPS was a bit longer than the old one (i asked for a CPS for a '90 TGP when i bought it at NAPA). - removed air filter and all intercooler pipes so i could varify the enigine was getting air....still no start. what's wierd is that the upper IC pipe & hose had gas in them (puddled up...gas reversion?) but it didn't look like any was coming from the the throttle body. wierd. maybe it was just some leftover Chem-Dip i cleaned the intercooler with last week? - i thought (could have been my imagination) that the starter sounded a little different than before, so we tried push starting it by popping the clutch in 1st with the key ON and the car still wouldn't even try to start. so that rules out the starter. so it's getting fuel, air and spark and it still won't start. what does that leave? timing? all of the cam timing is in the timing chain & ignition timing in the chip, and i seriously doubt the chain jumped a tooth or broke - when i had the timing cover off the chain didn't have very much slack in it despite the engine's high miles. when the car quit while revving up to ~5500 RPM i didn't hear any bad sounds coming from the engine. and i doubt the chip is the problem because i drove the car those 4 blocks home and it ran great. i even took Jay's TGP/5-speed memcal back out of the ECM and tried the NA 3.1/5-speed memcal just to rule out the memcal and it still won't start. anyone know anything else i can try? could my timing chain have broken or jumped somehow?? that might explain why it sounds a bit different while cranking the engine (seriously though, it sounds ever so slightly different that it might just be my imagination there). WTF!!!!! i gotta get this car to dyno day 4hrs away this coming weekend and i am completely stumped!! :shock: :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canada Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 I didn't read the rest of this topic.......only your first post (and the one on this page)...... -It can't be the crank sensor...you've got spark......the crank senors directly feeds the ICM to tell it when to fire. -You said the plugs were fouled........well, thats your problem. Perhaps injectors flowing to much fuel or sticking open? My GP did the same thing. Pull the plugs out...let everything dry out. Best to do this overnight. -Otherwise......you are looking at compression issue. Or, you mentioned a timing chain/cam timing issue. Well, to verify the cam IS turning......take the front valve cover off and watch the rocker arms while cranking. It still could have jumped a tooth.....but that will show up in the compression test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 it does seem like the engine is completely flooded out...but it was running fine this morning until i revved to 5500 RPM. could it be an injector(s)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canada Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 Well............it sounds like its something fuel related. The injectors are letting to much fuel through. They could be leaking........but they also could be commanded on......by.....something......PCM, short in the harness....who knows. You have a fuel pressure gauge......this isn't exactly perfect.......but.....connect it, and pressurize the fuel rail (key to on, then off).....remember the pressure its at and wait an hour. Check it again. If its lower, something is leaking......be it the check ball in the fuel pump, the fuel pressure regulator, or the injectors. I would start by drying the motor out to insure there isn't a mechanical problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 -You said the plugs were fouled........well, thats your problem. Perhaps injectors flowing to much fuel or sticking open? My GP did the same thing. Pull the plugs out...let everything dry out. Best to do this overnight. -Otherwise......you are looking at compression issue. Or, you mentioned a timing chain/cam timing issue. Well, to verify the cam IS turning......take the front valve cover off and watch the rocker arms while cranking. It still could have jumped a tooth.....but that will show up in the compression test. ok i'm going to remove all plugs and let things dry overnight. i'll also pull the valve cover off and make sure the valve train is moving. i have a compression tester and i'll check compression tomarrow too. damn, the engine has new head gaskets, new bolts, and i was really really sure to clean all surfaces so i hope it didn't blow a head gasket! and it's not like i was really making any boost free revving to 5500 RPM in Neutral :? fwiw i see no traces of water in the oil...just brand new practically transparent 10w30... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canada Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 Even with a blown head gasket it would start........it takes some serious ring or piston failure for a motor to not start due to a lack of compression. How long where those injectors sitting? I'll bet the varishy goo inside of them went to funky places or harden slightly and the injectors arent sealing properly. See what the other plugs look like......whatever is wet, replace that injector. At least after you verify the motor will start again. If you feel like getting them flushed..... http://www.witchhunter.com/ $12 per injector. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 i just went outside and tried cranking on it again and i'm more convinced now that the engine sounds different than it did before while cranking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 Even with a blown head gasket it would start........it takes some serious ring or piston failure for a motor to not start due to a lack of compression. that's good. a blown head gasket would really suck balls. How long where those injectors sitting? I'll bet the varishy goo inside of them went to funky places or harden slightly and the injectors arent sealing properly. the TGP injectors sat for about 2 years without use. i ohm tested them and they were all right around 11.5 ohms. i used new O-rings for the injectors (all 12) when i installed the fuel rail. See what the other plugs look like......whatever is wet, replace that injector. At least after you verify the motor will start again. If you feel like getting them flushed..... http://www.witchhunter.com/ $12 per injector. thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPilot Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 How old was the gas in the Cutlass tank when you fired everything up? 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canada Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 Yeah.....sounds to me like they would definately be leaking then......a fixable problem. But its another week down for your car.....but it beats buying new ones. Off with the intake manifold! He had it running less than 4-5 months ago if I remember correctly......and it ran at least for a little bit, so fuel quality should be there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 the gas was about 6 months old (i last drove the car in October). at least i don't have to pull the LIM back off. i'm going to check out every spark plug tomarrow and pull the plenum off if needed.....oh what fun this problem is looking like it's going to keep me from going to dyno day oh well could be worse i guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sl3196 Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 this problem is looking like it's going to keep me from going to dyno day oh well could be worse i guess. No way! get it fixed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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