Changed my mind again, no more 400hp DOHC for me

[Aaron]

Hey.

 

Well me and some friends have been researching for a while now, and I am no longer going to build the motor I was hoping to, which is 400+hp @ 8000 rpm all naturally aspirated from a 3.4L DOHC.

 

Today I decided that I will be buying a Whipple supercharger, and that will be going on top. As for the lower end of the engine, it will be about the same as if I was running NA, just with forged steel rods instead of titanium, and stock oiling system + a quart instead of a dry sump. I don't need this stuff when just running to 7. It will be cheaper this way as well. It will still have H-beam rods, forged alum pistons w/ 8.5:1 compression, P&P heads with hollow valves and lightened lifters, stock beehive springs, stock cams for now, and a custom built lower intake, and a 80mm BBK throttle body. Also, full equal length headers, measuring 1 7/8" diameter and 34" primary length, running true dual 2.5" pipes. Horsepower should be around 520 with 14psi of intercooled whipple boost. Fun fun fun. Tuning will be accomplished through a aftermarket computer (undecided which company as of yet), and that will incorporate a new ignition and wideband O2 sensor.

 

I will still be building my independant throttle body setup, and I will dyno it on my red car, and then sell it. It is perfect in every respect, and the best intake that could EVER be put on a N/A engine, but they are useless for boost. So this is just an update, we are in the process of figuring out which SC we need, so I will be getting back with pics and such.

[Intlcutlass]

Poor clutch :bawl:

 

 

Seriously, I would love to see progress on this.....

[Aaron]

Since it is in a Fiero, the clutch will be a lightened Spec, made for the Getrag 282. It was also have a limited slip, most likely a Predator. So poor 282...lol

[Intlcutlass]

OOOOHHHhhhhh... A fiero!

 

I just blew the clutch in my 88 Foermula last month :cuss:

 

 

Tell ya what tho....

 

I rebuilt front with Koni adjustables, drop springs, poly bushings....

 

Still working on the c4 rotor upgrade.

 

Corners like its on rails

[Guest TurboSedan]

So poor 282...lol

 

you better start stocking up on extra 282s

[Intlcutlass]

So poor 282...lol

 

you better start stocking up on extra 282s

 

For a couple hundred... get it cryo treated!!!

[sonyman87]

let me get this strait. you rebuilt your 3.4L put it in your lumina.. took it out and slaped it into a Fiero and put a new crate engine in your lumina???

 

what would posses you to do this assuming this is correct?

[Canada]

Why not turbocharge it?

[Aaron]

let me get this strait. you rebuilt your 3.4L put it in your lumina.. took it out and slaped it into a Fiero and put a new crate engine in your lumina???

 

what would posses you to do this assuming this is correct?

 

Close. The rebuilt motor stays in the white Z34 with the red Z34's 284 5-speed with 106k. This car is sold, as is modified to another board member. I bought a new crate engine, and a 284 5-speed with 10,000 miles (new), and together these go into our red Z34. It is a daily and has a salvaged title (mechanical reasons). So my dad payed for all of that since it is his car. Now I am using my saved money, and money from selling my Z34, to buy a Fiero, and to build up the 3.4L that came fromt he red car (trashed). My inspiration? A drop of nearly 1000 pounds weight, and traction. A stock 3.4L DOHC will make a Fiero run high 13s to very low 14s.

 

Here is the most recent update. I checked it out, and animul used a 2300AX Whipple twin screw on his 97 GTP. This blower, after looking at compressor maps and such, is very slightly UNDERsized for the L67, and way undersized for the 3.4L DOHC. Even though we are down .4L, .3 after the .060 overbore, due to the 90% volumetric efficiency posted by 4 valve per cyl motors, we need a bigger blower. A typical 2 valve engine makes about 80-85% volumetric efficiency. So I am looking right now for more compressor maps offered by Whipple to see if I can find one. Using a 2300AX, I would be putting Adiabatic efficiency at about 63.5% at any boost from 8-14psi. This is really good, but it can get better. The L67 sees about 64% from 8-12, 63% at 14, and a max of 65% at 10psi, but is still on the small side since the best place to run would be at 10psi.

 

The Eaton M90, I now believe is one of the worst blowers made. At 10psi, it is only at 42.5% Adiabatic efficiency. This SUCKS. The discharge temp is 65* higher thna that of the Whipple, and it has to spin 4300rpm faster. It also costs 12 more hp to run. Also, it flows 55cfm less than the Whipple. So we have established that Whipple=good.

 

The max you will see form a Whipple is about 65%. A Vortech S-trim will see about 70%, and a good turbo for a L67 will see 74%. But the advantages of the twin screw design (low-midrange boost, ease of install, reliability, etc) make it a better choice in my opinion.

[Aaron]

The next size up is the 3300AX, 3.3L per rev. After studying the flow charts for this blower, it is perfect for what I need. A bigass blower for sure, but perfect. These are my values, using a 3.46L enigne, 7,000 rpm, 90% VE.

Boost(psi)-CFM-Cubic meters-Adiabatic efficiency with 3300AX-AE with 2300AX

 

8-593-16.8-64%-63.8%

10-647-18.3-64.5%-63.5%

12-701-19.9-63.6%-63.2%

14-751-21.3-63.5%-63%

16-809-22.9-62.5%-62.5%

18-855-24.2-60%-62%

 

Although they look pretty much the same, my boost line, form 5psi to 20, runs right across the apex's of the 3300's AE. So basically, when the blower is at 9psi, it is at 66%, where as it is at 63.5 on the 2300. So the in-between values are a lot higher. Also the numbers should not be compared. The inlet temp on the 2300 is 20*C, it is 25*C on the 3300. So therefore the 3300 is still more efficient for my purposes, even with hotter air coming in. This blower is perfect for me. The pirce is $2300 for a 3300AX satin black, $2800 for it polished. I will be going satin, and we will see if I can find it cheaper. http://www.superchargers4less.com gaurantees that they are the cheapest, and they will beat any price, so I will be using them.

 

Any more ideas? I also need to look at intercoolers, for the future since the Whipple doesn't need one as of now. The blower is 6.3" high, and my custom LIM should sit at about the same height as the factory LIM. The factory UIM sits about 5" higher than the LIM, so it should fit under the hood of a Z34, but I doubt it will the Fiero. And with the additional 1-2" height of an A/W intercooler, it surely will not. But this is ok.[/url]

[Guest TurboSedan]

sounds cool, but i would still seriously consider a Garrett T04E...

[Guest TurboSedan]

Since it is in a Fiero, the clutch will be a lightened Spec, made for the Getrag 282. It was also have a limited slip, most likely a Predator. So poor 282...lol

 

Now I am using my saved money, and money from selling my Z34, to buy a Fiero, and to build up the 3.4L that came fromt he red car (trashed). My inspiration? A drop of nearly 1000 pounds weight, and traction. A stock 3.4L DOHC will make a Fiero run high 13s to very low 14s.

 

so are you using the 282 or 284

[Aaron]

Well first of all the T04e-60 is too small according to TimG, I'd need something more like a GT35r I think...Both of these trubos are only about 8-10 more efficient than the Whipple charger, which translates to about 30hp. I'd have to build a totally new custom manifold style intake. This takes a lot fo time and money. Plus I LOVE BLOWER WHINE. Turbos sound good, but even an M90 sounds better IMO. The turbo has to be intercooled, and A/A intercoolers don't work in Fieros, I'd need a A/W to start with. The Whipple can run non-intercooled, even at 20+ psi. The A/W are expensive, and if I don't need one to start with, I'd rather not. The turbo also adds the cost of custom fabbing charge pipes, and turbo inlet pipes. I am set on a blower.

 

A 282. I never said I will use a 284. I have the used, bad 2nd gear synchro, 284 from my white Z34 if I ever need it in a Fiero, but I'd rather stick with 282s. Cheaper, more common, rebuildable, buildable, LSD availability, aftermarket clutch kits, etc. No 284 clutch will handle the 500-600hp I'm looking to give it, but a Spec stage 4-5 will have no problem with it.

 

The numbers say go with a 3.3L blower, but I can't fathom it. Having a blower that displaces just .2L shy of my entire engine in a single revolution just seems odd to me I guess. I wish someone here knew about these blowers more, where the hell is animuL? Jail still? I'll try 60* too I guess...

[slick]

SC whine = sexy.

[Guest TurboSedan]

turbo zing + BOV = more sexy

[Aaron]

And of course, what can you expect from 60*V6?

 

All I got was "we all knew your ITB setup wouldn't work, and the Eaton is good, and you can't do it." Sounds liek what I got with my headers idea...

 

Even tho we have proof that the Eaton isn't good, and I have proof that my ITB setup will work, and my headers obviously worked...

 

God can't they see the good coming from a 19 year old with some ideas, money, and the mechanical inclination to bring it all together???

[Vegeta]

no, cause I banned you. Remember that. BANNED! don't come back, period. If you can't comprehend that, what makes you think any of us care how many projects you give up on before you finish.

 

Proof that your ITB works? Well lets see some vid of your car running with it then. You can't stop the project and then say "oh, but it just needed to be welded up". Sure, I can slap shit on my motor and call it a day, but turning the key and driving off in the end are what matter, not bolting up shit and letting it collect dust.

 

So you also have proof that the eaton isn't good for low boost, OEM applications like its sold as? Lets see it.

 

Brian turboed his car at the age of 19, all you have done is made a nice designed, poorly executed set of headers, that you didnt finish before you started using part of the set. Am I supposed to take you seriously? Well I don't. You just run your mouth about what you are doing next.

 

don't forget, you promised us all that you will have the fastest 3.4 DOHC, NA or boosted this year. Better get something done.

[GP1138]

Whee! Drama!

[EurosportZ34]

BOTH have sexy as hell whines

[dbtk2]

Animal was relased a few months ago Aaron. I don't think he posts on here often though. Maybe check out club GP, you'll likely find him there more than here.

 

Shawn

[Aaron]

no, cause I banned you. Remember that. BANNED! don't come back, period. If you can't comprehend that, what makes you think any of us care how many projects you give up on before you finish.

 

Proof that your ITB works? Well lets see some vid of your car running with it then. You can't stop the project and then say "oh, but it just needed to be welded up". Sure, I can slap shit on my motor and call it a day, but turning the key and driving off in the end are what matter, not bolting up shit and letting it collect dust.

 

So you also have proof that the eaton isn't good for low boost, OEM applications like its sold as? Lets see it.

 

Brian turboed his car at the age of 19, all you have done is made a nice designed, poorly executed set of headers, that you didnt finish before you started using part of the set. Am I supposed to take you seriously? Well I don't. You just run your mouth about what you are doing next.

 

don't forget, you promised us all that you will have the fastest 3.4 DOHC, NA or boosted this year. Better get something done.

 

You suck at banning people, cuz not only can I still login, but I will have another screenname just for getting into 60*V6 here in about a day. (Waiting for my yahoo account to work). Maybe it will give you a heart attack...

 

Give me one reason why it won't work. They are just throttle bodies, a method of controlling air flow into an engine. It will work, but how well is what I aim to find out.

 

As for the proof. Here it is. At 7psi, stock boost level for a GTP, the Eaton is still less efficient, requiring more hp to turn, pushing hotter air, pushing less air, and turning faster than the Whipple at the same boost. In fact, the only place that the Eaton is more efficient is at levels less than 2psi of boost. However, with the optional Whipple bypass valve, animuL got 3mpg BETTER than the GTP, and with more low end since the Whipple is constantly pressurizing the air. So the only argument you can have is that it is noiser at WOT conditions, which is good IMO, and that it is harder on your motor at part throttle since it is always boosting. But at 8.5:1 compression, 1-2psi isn't hurting any. If I had a scanner, I;d scan the 12 compressor maps that have my handwriting and doodling all over them from the past 2 weeks of me thinking about this non-stop.

 

And the set was finished before I started using it. How would I run a front set and a back manifold? I'd have to custom make a downpipe that bolts to the factory rear manifold...Sounds like a waste of time and money to me. And they are nicely executed, and you have no proof that they aren't. And building a set of equal length headers to fit this motor has about the same level of difficulty as a turbo setup, but just a little cheaper. You are totally right I run my mouth, but I can back it up. You have seen pics of the ITB setup, and it has every component neccessary. I am just waiting on a couple of mandrel bends, and the time to do it. Isn't that the point of these forums? I tell people what I am going to do next, that way they know when I have questions, they get inspiration, and maybe some level of an aftermarket community sees that there are people interested in making this motor perform at levels higher than a chip or some hand-ported heads with no flow numbers

 

I'm done now, thx to those who PM-ed me (The 4 btw) agreeing with me and supporting my ideas. I am 19, very mechanically inclined, and I work my ass of for every dime I make, and I think you should see this as a good thing, especially when you have and will be making money off of me.

 

Running by 2006? I doubt it, after changing the project, there are a lot more expensive things I need to do to it now that take time and money, and being in OK doesn't help any. But I plan on building the motor this summer, and buying the blower next fall. It will be in running condition hopefully by 2006, but I will need a car to put it in, and so far I haven't found a 88GT that I like.

[Aaron]

Well I did a lot of number crunching today to try and see which is best for me, the 2300 or the 3300. Here is the chart I made:

 

.......................2300AX.............................3300AX

.......................8psi.....12psi.......................8psi......12psi

AE..................63.7%..63.4%...................64%......63.7%

Temp C*.......83.........109........................78..........102

RPM...............8100.....9600....................5800.......6800

HP draw.........28.2......45.6....................26.8.........44.3

VE.................89%.....89%........................88%.........88%

 

So in conclusion, I still don't know which is best. From the looks of it, the bigger one is better. It draws slightly less hp, the discharge temp is slightly lower, and its AE is slightly higher. But the 2300 has higher VE by 1%, and it would be easier to install and $500 cheaper. As for the RPM, that really isn't a problem since I will have to figure out pulley ratios to drive them anyway, so making one turn faster or slower isn't hard. So this didn't give me too much info, they look to be pretty similiar, with the 3300 being slightly better overall. I'm stuck and need help. There must be something I am not considering if a bigass blower put on 8.0L V8s is the same as the much smaller blower, but judging from all fo the numbers, I am dead on...

[Guest TurboSedan]

no, cause I banned you. Remember that. BANNED! don't come back, period.

 

You suck at banning people, cuz not only can I still login, but I will have another screenname just for getting into 60*V6 here in about a day. (Waiting for my yahoo account to work). Maybe it will give you a heart attack...

 

let's keep this on topic or it will be locked - no more BS about arguements/problems between you two on different forums.

[Dannymik]

shit, there both sexy IMO

[Dannymik]

I was replying to the comment on superchargers and turbos