joberlee Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Not sure on the half shafts I guess... I never actually did any wrenching on that car. IIRC the final fuel setup was with a second full set of injectors in the intake manifold just above the factory injectors. The engine went through a lot of builds, rebuilds, and many many mods. I may be wrong, but wouldn't the fact that the differential is not centered cause some torque application problems (even with the intermediate shaft and equal halfshafts)? I've only ever driven one series of FWD cars that had no torque steer. That was an 89' Probe GT 5 speed Turbo, the diff was more centered and the halfshafts slide right into it (no intermediate shaft). Same transmission setup was in the 89-92 Probes and 88-92 Mazda 626/ MX6. Mazda design Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Been bleeding brakes, installing struts and taking care of the neighbor's kid after he got back from the emergency room, did not see that the 3 bar post was getting so much boost :shock: !! Sounds like an intense little FWD car, would imagine with the torque steer these cars get could cause some new issues to someone breaking ground being one of the first faster rides of its kind back then. And to clear up some terminology, maybe add some new, Torque Steer like dbtk says is when the steering wheel needs to be held which it can happen on “some†cars during powerful accelerations, especially around a corner for all FWDs, though I have let the wheel go/no hands and laid a nice long patch with no problems (but want to try it again to confirm!!!! ) in my TGP, key is how good of a condition the steel washers are in our differential. The “other†Torque Steer is like what was quoted here for the DSM/Chryslers where it changes lanes no matter what you do to the steering wheel . The TGP only has the prior personality at times, thankfully 8) !!! As for a quote or statement of any kind, I have seen posts and heard of claims that were hard to believe or something I never heard of (maybe time to learn), not always clear which it will be without giving it a chance. You cannot learn if you immediately through out a BS Sign, not always the best way to ask for proof either, how about “No way dude that’s wild, I never heard or seen of that, you got a pic?†There is always something to be learned (without the immediate BS Flag thrown down, like a challenge to their smarts :read: or memory ) and it may be one side or the other or both that is about to learn, but is this a critical debate ("on" or "off" topic? ), ask yourself that??? It seems joberlee has held back with great restraint (or it is not of any offense to him the replies so far) from reacting to the BS Flags and the “no-wayâ€Â, have to give the nod for that ya know 8) !! Maybe a picture would clear that one point up but like I said, how important is it to prove this, other than to burn the flags . And as always, there are MANY routes to take with mods, might be some value or an unforeseen need at the time for the odd ones, whatever, its still up to that person what they do, and don't always need someone's approval Off to bed early for a change, garage is a paint booth all day tomorrow. Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joberlee Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 If I had a picture here of this car, I would post it. Unfortunately it is currently in storage about 300 miles away with a toasted piston, ran lean. If I can find the shots from the drag strip that were used in the magazine write up I'll post them. Jeff M, Thanks for the clarification to the "never driven a non-gm vehicle" people on here about how some FWD cars handle when they have more than stock power under the hood. Some people don't realize how good the GM FWD cars drive compared to other makes and models out there. Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 The “other†Torque Steer is like what was quoted here for the DSM/Chryslers where it changes lanes no matter what you do to the steering wheel !!! Jeff M mine won't change lanes no matter what i do to the steering wheel, i just have to pull hard to the left and i'm ok i've raced people from a dig before where i had to get off the gas because my car was being pulled over towards theirs :shock: even at a 20mph punch my car will change lanes if i don't hold onto the steering wheel. still though, the front wheel coming off the ground? that sounds like really bad wheel hop to me. and there are plenty of people on here that have driven a non GM vehicle....TGPilot & myself own/have owned Turbo Dodges. no matter how much power you put down, one of the front wheels isn't going to come off the ground....it will just go up in smoke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jcrow Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 I just read this thread from start to finsh I have 2 questions 1 - What rpm do automatic TGP's like to shift at? When I had my transmission rebuilt it shifted very low so I adjusted the TV cable to shift at 5800-5900. Its deffinatly too high, I usually let off the gas to make it shift, but I figured it would be good once I get the turbo on (very soon!) 2 - Jeff, you spoke of a knock alert, Is this the type that you need an extra knock sensor? Since our cars don't have the seperate knock sensor module? (Its now in the chip) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPilot Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 still though, the front wheel coming off the ground? that sounds like really bad wheel hop to me. and there are plenty of people on here that have driven a non GM vehicle....TGPilot & myself own/have owned Turbo Dodges. no matter how much power you put down, one of the front wheels isn't going to come off the ground....it will just go up in smoke. Like I had said...show me a picture of any FWD (non-AWD) car pulling the front off the ground and I wil admit defeat and lower the BS flags! The best car for severe torque steer was my '87 Sunbird GT running 12 lbs. That car was a pure POINT AND SHOOT car. If you didn't have both hands on the wheel...good luck recovering cause it was all over the place...never would go the same way twice!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 still though, the front wheel coming off the ground? that sounds like really bad wheel hop to me. and there are plenty of people on here that have driven a non GM vehicle....TGPilot & myself own/have owned Turbo Dodges. no matter how much power you put down, one of the front wheels isn't going to come off the ground....it will just go up in smoke. Does sound like when a car wheel hops. So all of you 2 Turbo Dodge Boys running in the 12s yet 8) ? I like the smoking tire idea, though hard to smoke if its in the air Anyways, nothing to get excited about really!! Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 still though, the front wheel coming off the ground? that sounds like really bad wheel hop to me. and there are plenty of people on here that have driven a non GM vehicle....TGPilot & myself own/have owned Turbo Dodges. no matter how much power you put down, one of the front wheels isn't going to come off the ground....it will just go up in smoke. Like I had said...show me a picture of any FWD (non-AWD) car pulling the front off the ground and I wil admit defeat and lower the BS flags! Yes Kenny, and like I said, we all seen your flags posted numerous time on this subject He got your point as we all did more than enough 8) , and he replied with good board posting manners and said he would post a pic sometime, but I don't see it critical enough for that much effort Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 I just read this thread from start to finsh I have 2 questions1 - What rpm do automatic TGP's like to shift at? When I had my transmission rebuilt it shifted very low so I adjusted the TV cable to shift at 5800-5900. Its deffinatly too high, I usually let off the gas to make it shift, but I figured it would be good once I get the turbo on (very soon!) 2 - Jeff, you spoke of a knock alert, Is this the type that you need an extra knock sensor? Since our cars don't have the seperate knock sensor module? (Its now in the chip) Yea we are having fun with this 3-Bar Post If there was some added info worth it I would split it 8) To answer your questions: 1) The tranny and as important the stock engine needs to shift at around 5,200 rpms max, stock engine/turbo no extra power up past that. After you shift you don't want to be past the torque peak which is easy enough to know at around 220 lb-ft at 2,800 to 3,200 rpms (from magazine articles and dyno sheets). With a 5,200 rpm shift at WOT the rpms don’t drop down to even the 3,200 mark so a shift point higher than 5,200 shows how bad an idea this will be. 2) Yes an extra knock sensor, that comes with the MSD Knock Alert Unit and that is tuned to the known characteristics of that knock sensor. There is a spare hole on the back side of the block for this extra knock sensor. The extra help from this monitor is to have something yelling at you if you are knocking, something a scan tool or our computer does not do 8) , and the MSD has a light bar that shows intensity of knock occurring that matches the intensity of the audio alert so a pretty good monitor to have if you like extra protection in any car! Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jcrow Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Thanks Jeff! - A 3bar map sensor has less resolution than a 1 or 2 ( They all use 0 to 5 volt signals) If you try to cram more signal into the same voltage range it wont be as accurate - just my 2 cents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Thanks Jeff! - A 3bar map sensor has less resolution than a 1 or 2 ( They all use 0 to 5 volt signals) If you try to cram more signal into the same voltage range it wont be as accurate - just my 2 cents 3-Bar talks, what a novel idea Exactly, a lot less resolution when changing to a 3-Bar Chip; Timing Tables, VE Tables; Open-Loop Fueling Tables, Closed Loop Fueling Tables, Boost to name a few, I would just cheat (or spent $$ for an add-on EMS) and get a VRGFPR Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboGTU Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 So every one on Sy/ty.net that bought a STG 3 bar chip got robed? Well I can see how a 3 bar has less resolution for vacume but it does have more for boost. Any way you look at it...Its still in the ecm tables. Even if we do have less resolution..it will still run good. It still uses TPS input, RPM and the IAT, ECT sensors, IAC step count air calculations, and the programed idle VE talbes just to name a few. But who ever said there is such a thing as a perfect tune. There is none in exsistance..well almost. The idea of a 2 map sensor setup always comes into mind..or Maf and map. But why would I care for a perfect idle on a high power engine...I sure as hell don't . Parts don't blow up on vacume, low throtle . Unmetered high boost and WF*ingOT it will :shock: . Even if you do add fuel via a after market 7th injector or what not..how about timming? The aftermaket timming gismos are just to laugh about -- here--> . What if you don't need to keep pulling timming or you need more timming instead of less? Can it compinsate for air temp..coolant temp? Anywho..this is me 8) . To each his own. Im just going to dive in to this 3bar regarless. This includes intergrating a 1bar for altmosphere on the tables and riding of the EGR tables-subroutines..everything egr..the ecm won't have a table or knowlage of what a EGR is. Should have room there for the 1bar after the egr gone. Well have fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboGTU Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 Oh yea..about the twisted FWD..yes..it does happen. All the force of acceleration creates high amounts of weight on the rear and the front gets a nice cheen up. The body starts to "banana" it self . The FWD wheely... well wheel hop or the exagerated downforce of the back could cause the front to momentarally jump a split second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 So every one on Sy/ty.net that bought a STG 3 bar chip got robed? Well I can see how a 3 bar has less resolution for vacume but it does have more for boost. Any way you look at it...Its still in the ecm tables. Even if we do have less resolution..it will still run good. It still uses TPS input, RPM and the IAT, ECT sensors, IAC step count air calculations, and the programed idle VE talbes just to name a few. But who ever said there is such a thing as a perfect tune. There is none in exsistance..well almost. The idea of a 2 map sensor setup always comes into mind..or Maf and map. But why would I care for a perfect idle on a high power engine...I sure as hell don't . Parts don't blow up on vacume, low throtle . Unmetered high boost and WF*ingOT it will :shock: . Even if you do add fuel via a after market 7th injector or what not..how about timming? The aftermaket timming gismos are just to laugh about -- here--> . What if you don't need to keep pulling timming or you need more timming instead of less? Can it compinsate for air temp..coolant temp? Anywho..this is me 8) . To each his own.Im just going to dive in to this 3bar regarless. This includes intergrating a 1bar for altmosphere on the tables and riding of the EGR tables-subroutines..everything egr..the ecm won't have a table or knowlage of what a EGR is. Should have room there for the 1bar after the egr gone. Well have fun. Yea that VRGFPR was followed by since its good but not great 8) I have not checked but his 3Bar might have extended tables to help the resolution :? Been a while since I talked to Brian, and I didn’t know it was said the 3bar would make for a bad chip :shock: ? I do know a little about this tuner and his wears, I just happened to have been the one who returned some favors from the tuner by getting him a copy of an insider GM Document on the 749 chip back in 1996, which he indicated as giving him the ability to know these chip totally and was instrumental in all the chips he offered from the first non-3Bars to the 3Bar and the Switcher chips 4-1, 6-1, 8-1 and the 10-1. He still did a ton of work on his own and with some help from other guru tuner buddies, those “buddies†I referred to earlier that went underground. The Doc I gave him had the instructions regarding the chip layout and usage, and was the other part of the typical calibrations document that most think is all that is needed to tune, and from these instructions now knowing instead of guessing the many tables and their independent and share functionalities. The instructions were still purposely vague, in a way most would still find it lacking in enough explanations but if you put your mind to it the rest could be figured out, and it gives a great feeling when that all falls into place. All along on the SyTy Mailing List and Message Forums it was already known there would be guys who would reveal the workings of Brian’s chips and other small category vendors (those that really did not qualify for a true vendor level status would be effected the worst!) so rules were set into place stating no dissecting of products on the open forum. They understood how this ruins it for the author/inventor and everyone looking to buy when a product worked out by a company is then given away/dissected and that this was a dis-service for the majority of SyTy owners, most of which had no interest and/or abilities to make up their own bootleg version of a product. When a vendor as they were called lost the rights to their product from this dissecting, what little sales that came from this very limited run SyTys dropped off sharply, and those venders such as ATR, Kenny-Bell, Conley, DynoTech ended up dropping some of their product lines to the SyTy Group (saying fine, fuk you guys then) and going off to other cars to try and pay for their business or overgrown hobby. There was a squabble on those SyTy Mailing Lists and Forums at first, by only a few since it was their belief (more so arrogance and greed) that the internet was free speech and therefore stretch this out to do whatever they damn well please, but the Admins and Mods running the mailing lists/boards and the elder statesmen there were acting for the long term good of the majority of members and vendors and the outcome was accepted. That worked great for a long time but then there were those loudmouth types again that did not know what they were doing or getting into or whatever that came to the boards bashing the vendors products, even though 90% of buyers, more so those better informed about mod’ing their truck, were very pleased with the products and the end results. This is the same as on eBay where you see a seller with 20,000 feedbacks, 19,950 positive and 50 viciously negatives, and its always the negatives that are most vocal and do the most damage when its really not the vendors or products fault. Another Brian, Brian Hartman did extensive work to the 700R4 coming up with some top notch mods and special parts to address all key areas in the trannies, his kits were $2,000 for just parts but were very extensive with a lot of time invested and all things proved out, and was doing a great service to the SyTy Community's needs as there was no other kit like it, no problems with his product at all, but then and I quote from an email sent to me 2/11/2005 from one of those underground gurus: I don't even know if Hartman's still in the game anymore, he kind of fell off the map in the SyTy world. A lot of the trash-talking punks got on his nerves, and I think he decided to find better customers. There's a ton of people doing SyTy stuff, some good, some not so good. It's getting really tough to share anything new with the public- as soon as you do, it gets marketed and sold as someone else's. A lot of the really innovative people have gone quiet for this reason. Anyways, getting this email hit at a time and had a chance to share it here, I was looking to get one of Brian H’s 700R4 killer tranny kits, I know a lot about trannies and know a ton of great parts to make up a 700R4 kit, but I would still rather have one from a trusted source that has gone to great lengths to cover all the details, and as I have found with the trannies and other projects I have worked on, there are always hidden details and if one is missed, well the whole thing/$$ comes tumbling down. So, sorry to see Brian H's great products go and will say the other Brian’s STG Chips are also very top notch and hope he can still continue to serve the SyTy Community !! Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joberlee Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 Oh yea..about the twisted FWD..yes..it does happen. All the force of acceleration creates high amounts of weight on the rear and the front gets a nice cheen up. The body starts to "banana" it self . The FWD wheely... well wheel hop or the exagerated downforce of the back could cause the front to momentarally jump a split second. Thank you for knowing what the hell I was talking about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.