supreme_style21 Posted October 23, 2004 Report Share Posted October 23, 2004 Usually happens after engine is warm. I have yet to experience it on a cold engine. Most of the time, it happens at highway speeds, if it makes a difference. It'll start cutting out/missing.. quite badly. I almost left it on the side of the interstate yesterday because of it. The car would barely move. It's done this before, but not as bad. Another, assumably related problem, is surging / stalling. When I come to a stop, it'll just surge like a mofo. If your foot isn't firmly on the brake, you're gonna hit whoever is ahead of ya. When stopped, the RPM's will slowly jitter their way down to 400 or so, then surge up to 1500 for a few seconds, then return to normal. I thought it was wires and/or plugs. Mine were in piss-poor shape. I picked up a set of ACDelco plugs and wires. It didn't solve the problem. Threw a new fuel filter in. Didn't help. It throws a code 13- 'O2 sensor failure' for a few minutes when the symptoms occur.. SES light goes off after a minute or so, so it ends up being a history code. The sensor is less than 10k old. Wires are fine. It's a Bosch sensor.. a shadetree mechanic told me Bosch makes a shitty O2 sensor. I don't know. Again, it doesn't do this all the time, but it does it enough to where I'm leary of driving it any distance. Where else should I look? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveFromColorado Posted October 23, 2004 Report Share Posted October 23, 2004 .. as everyone says, even new parts can be bad off the shelf. also, it sounds like a coil/ICM problem - I'd look into those, if they are runnin' strange they can heat up the exhaust by allowing fuel to burn on it's way outta the cylinder on the wasted spark and burn up the O2 sensors, I'd pull the sensor and check it. Coils/ICM's are real sensative to heat. --Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supreme_style21 Posted October 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2004 .. as everyone says, even new parts can be bad off the shelf. also, it sounds like a coil/ICM problem - I'd look into those, if they are runnin' strange they can heat up the exhaust by allowing fuel to burn on it's way outta the cylinder on the wasted spark and burn up the O2 sensors, I'd pull the sensor and check it. Coils/ICM's are real sensative to heat. --Dave. I thought of coils, but I thought that when they got hot, they just went to shit.. period. When it starts missing, if I pull over, restart the car, the problem seemingly disappears(for the most part). If a coil was being affected by the heat, wouldn't it still act up at that point? I don't think the O2 sensor is BAD.. when the car is running fine, there is absolutely nothing that points to a bad O2.. my fuel economy is still where it should be.. everything runs fine otherwise. Whatever is causing it to miss is somehow throwing the O2 sensor off? Could that, somehow, be causing the surging too? I don't see how.. perhaps they're completely unrelated problems :? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveFromColorado Posted October 23, 2004 Report Share Posted October 23, 2004 whelp, the way it'd go down the line is if you had a bad coil, or if your ICM was going bad it'd cause a miss maybe just one or two cylinders, but a miss none the less, that'd cause a rich condition to be read by the O2 sensor, so the computer would lean out all the injectors, meanwhile it's still missing so raw fuel is still escaping the chambers, further causing the computer to take even more fuel out - an ongoing process that'd make it LOOK like the O2 sensor, this would also cause excessive exhaust temps, which COULD burn up the O2 sensor (but as you pointed out, it's not the O2 because none of the other signs are there for it) if one coil was bad, or even just one tower on one coil pack was slightly cracked, it could cause this intermitant fault, that would also be more associated with heat. Just a thought tho.. --Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slade901 Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 I'll put my money on a bad TPS (Throttle Position Sensor). Check its wiring as well to make sure it is not rubbing or shorting out. Just replace the TPS with a new one. If not go to a junkyard and get a TPS and test it on your vehicle. The TPS is very small. if you know what I mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slade901 Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 What kind of vehicle do you have? With my vehicle, the coolant reservoir is in the middle top and behind the radiator. I've noticed that my coolant comes out of the coolant reservoir cover and sprays down the ICM/Ignition Coils and so I got that missing/surging. I've removed some coolant because I overfilled the coolant reservoir and tightened the coolant reservoir cover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supreme_style21 Posted October 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 What kind of vehicle do you have? With my vehicle, the coolant reservoir is in the middle top and behind the radiator. I've noticed that my coolant comes out of the coolant reservoir cover and sprays down the ICM/Ignition Coils and so I got that missing/surging. I've removed some coolant because I overfilled the coolant reservoir and tightened the coolant reservoir cover. Its a '94 Grand Prix, 3100. Interesting you bring up coolant. The same time the above problem started to surface, so did the 'Low Coolant' light. It comes on periodically. Coolant levels are fine in both the radiator and the overflow. I don't see any way coolant could find its way out of the overflow and to the coils, so I doubt that is a cause. There is no 'secure' cap on the overflow.. just a flimsy cover. I assume the occasional Low Coolant light is the result of a faulty sensor, seeing as how both levels seem to be staying at proper levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THe_DeTAiL3R Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Could it be a clogged cat? As far as the low COOLANT light, its likely a dirty/bad sensor.. they don't do anything anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supreme_style21 Posted October 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Could it be a clogged cat? As far as the low COOLANT light, its likely a dirty/bad sensor.. they don't do anything anyways. Yeah I'm not concerned with the light. I don't think the cat is to blame. If it keeps up as it is, I'll have to replace the cat.. raw fuel is surely going into the cat. The surging problem is getting significantly worse. Way worse. I'm driving the car as minimally as I can at this point :? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckethead Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 I'll put my money on a bad TPS (Throttle Position Sensor). Check its wiring as well to make sure it is not rubbing or shorting out. Just replace the TPS with a new one. If not go to a junkyard and get a TPS and test it on your vehicle. The TPS is very small. if you know what I mean. I'd have to agree... My chrysler had the same problem with inconsistant revs and stalling (except it stalled more at low speeds and at idle) and that's what it turned out to be... You might also have some bad gas, try throwing in some dry gas and see if that helps at all. I doubt it's a coil problem, I just had a coil go bad and short out the ICM, My engine ran like shit (much like a lawnmower), but it didn't have reving problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartonmd Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 If the TPS desn't work, try the ICM... it sounds like ICM problems I have had before too... with the surging at idle and the missing at road speeds... and actually, my '92 euro 3.1 is starting to surge a bit at idle and has, like 4 times now, 4-cylindered for like 2 minutes and been fine afterwords... but I can smell the cat when I stop right after that. I believe I would try the TPS first because that's what people are suggesting and I believe it doesn't cost nearly as much as the ICM. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supreme_style21 Posted October 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 I'll put my money on a bad TPS (Throttle Position Sensor). Check its wiring as well to make sure it is not rubbing or shorting out. Just replace the TPS with a new one. If not go to a junkyard and get a TPS and test it on your vehicle. The TPS is very small. if you know what I mean. I'd have to agree... My chrysler had the same problem with inconsistant revs and stalling (except it stalled more at low speeds and at idle) and that's what it turned out to be... You might also have some bad gas, try throwing in some dry gas and see if that helps at all. I doubt it's a coil problem, I just had a coil go bad and short out the ICM, My engine ran like shit (much like a lawnmower), but it didn't have reving problems. I doubt its the gas.. I've gone thru several tanks. A TPS sensor could cause the surging/stalling.. but the missing I don't think can be explained by the TPS.. its definately a spark/fuel problem. I think they are two different problems. I'd like to throw a new TPS at it.. there are no 'U-Pull-It' yards around here, so I can't pocket one. Don't really have the cash to buy one either :? I just spent a bunch of money on other shit for this car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supreme_style21 Posted October 29, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 somewhat of an update - It developed an ungodly high idle earlier this week, so I had the shop at work take a look at it. Ended up just resetting the computer, and it went back to its usual idle. But the surging/studdering/stalling problem is still there. All sensors were running well within specs. Coils are fine. ICM is fine. Shop possibly suspected intake gaskets, but that checked out fine. No vacuum leaks. Not sure where else to look. It isn't throwing any codes. Could it possibly the ECM itself? Don't suppose there is a way to test it. I, as well as a few shops, am stumped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoTox8410 Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 I had very similar problems with my sisters 2000 sunfire it ended up being the fuel pump Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Let me know if you need any test parts that'll transfer from the older cars, I've got pretty much everything, just not in town. I'd hook a fuel pressure gauge up to it and drive it around until it did it. I'd say between a fuel pressure gauge and a scan tool you should be able to get somewhere on a test drive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GP1138 Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 I, as well, was going to say TPS and ICM. There's no way you could remove and swap out the ICM for a different one, just as a test? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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