thinking of a tgp as a "next" car.

[havikx]

ok..from what i hear and have heard, the tgp is great for racing. does any1 race with there and can verify this?

 

plus...what do you think my chances are to pick one up from an unsuspecting 60yr old for a few 100 bucks?

 

this is for when the lumi has been fixed...and fixed..and fixed again. after i cannot fix it any longer cuz i love my lumi. just dont tell about this little convo we had...

[god910]

Well at least you have the love for fixing stuff. I have 3 TGP's and 2 I've raced at the track. I love them, and will never give them up (unless I sell them) As far as stock fast goes, they are decently fast, but unlike other cars, not alot of aftermarket (okay JeffM, and me soon, but as a not-for-profit "on my own time" kinda deal) So, next to no aftermarket. If I didn't love them, I wouldn't put so much time and money into making them faster. I can't say what you will spend, but I can tell you it'll be worth it, after you earn its love, that is.

[mfewtrail]

If you seriously want something to "race" that's easy to modify(easy as in "off-the-shelf" parts readily available), go for a 97+ GTP, the 97-00's can usually be had for a decent price now...this is, if you want to stay in the W' family.

 

EDIT:

 

BTW, I have ran my TGP at the track once. It had a conical filter intake(as pictured in my avatar..not the best setup, but it did alright), muffler/cat replacement + stock piping, Topgun 160 chip, and a 160* thermostat.

 

I ran twice, first run was a 14.9 and the second run was a 14.705@91.94mph, this was done at 1100' above sea level(not much, but it usually does make you run about two tenths of a second slower).

 

EDIT again:

here's a 1/4 mile list for TGP's(the first 13.XX time is NOT confirmed, the rest are actual runs...the TGP owner that ran the 13.XX was using nitrous supposedly).

http://members.aol.com/mv540paq/myhomepage/tgp.html

[Adam S.]

Which racing are you talking about? 1/4 mile or road race? The second gen W-bodies are much better at handling than the 3 gens. There are quite a few engine suspension upgrades for the 2nd gen, including throttle bodies, cams, exhaust, lowering springs, busings, struts, strut tower braces, sway bars. The only hard thing to fix is a bigger turbo, because our flange is not very universal. Get rid of that complex brake system and install a non ABS one, replace the automatic to a standard and you are set. The third gen is great for a one pass 1/4 mile race then invest in an ice cube company and sit around your engine bay with an icemound on top of it to wait to cool. Before I get flame I own a 3rd gen and comapred to a second gen especially a TGP it's crap in every respect.

 

Make sure you have a budget for wheels, and basically a new engine tranny combo.

 

Regards Adam S.

 

P.S. I'm more experienced in the road race than 1/4 mile.

[havikx]

i'm definatly staying in the w-family. they are just too good of cars to not love.

i'm into all racing...both 1/4 mile and street. its fine by me as long as its fast.

i definatly want something turbo'd or runs quick as hell stock. l67 for instance but i dont want to swap that into my car. i may in the long run but for like...another car. if i do buy another...i was thinking tgp. gimme some more ideas though. i'm intersted now...

[idbeast]

Look at my signature, I've spent more time at the track then most of the other guys combined :shock:

As for upgrades Jeff M has some major soon to be released stuff... stay tuned...

[samiamryan]

Ive done something a little different with mine. I own a 1990 tgp who's seen much finer days. I use it for a winter beater but is still plenty fast. At a dirt race track i go to, about 6 times a year they hold "street elimenators". Its basicaly a 1 on 1 drag race one lap around the half mile dirt oval. They get about a total of 3 dozen cars a night and split the cars into 2 groups. 4-6 cylinders and the v8s. Cars can range from little ford fiesta to beefed up Ford Probes and Civics in the 4 and 6s to monster 1968 Cameros in the v8s. You get the picure. The tgp held its own and I got a few wins and alot of complements and "thay made these with turbos?" The first night out I was pushing about 95 mph going into turn 3 (on dirt with a very small bank) I got on the breaks too late and too hard and the back end kicked out on me when I got in the loose dirt. Came from inches from killing it into the guard rail.

[Guest TurboSedan]

wow that sounds fun! :shock:

[mfewtrail]

I wouldn't dare let my TGP see a dirttrack. :shock: Sounds fun, but I like keeping it clean.

[dbtk2]

I wouldn't dare let my TGP see a dirttrack. :shock: Sounds fun, but I like keeping it clean.

 

Ditto. I'm the guy that drives 3mph down the dirt roads.

 

The second gen W-bodies are much better at handling than the 3 gens. There are quite a few engine suspension upgrades for the 2nd gen, including throttle bodies, cams, exhaust, lowering springs, busings, struts, strut tower braces, sway bars. The only hard thing to fix is a bigger turbo, because our flange is not very universal. Get rid of that complex brake system and install a non ABS one, replace the automatic to a standard and you are set. The third gen is great for a one pass 1/4 mile race then invest in an ice cube company and sit around your engine bay with an icemound on top of it to wait to cool. Before I get flame I own a 3rd gen and comapred to a second gen especially a TGP it's crap in every respect.

 

I don't see how a 2nd Gen handles better than a 3rd gen??? A stock GTP does .83 on the skidpad, which is pretty much exactly the same as a TGP, and when you drive a TGP you can tell that the only reason it handles good is because of the 245/50 tires. The body leans so much its not even funny. A stock GTP would kill a TGP on a roadcourse. It handles just as well, stops BETTER, and goes faster. A stock GTP would kill a TGP at the dragstrip too. And believe me, there really isn't much of a heat problem with the L67 like everyone thinks. You put a colder t-stat in it and a fan switch and the engine will always be cold. TGP's have SO much maintenance its not even funny. I would own a 3rd gen over a 2nd gen any day.

 

But we only have 3 TGP's, a '93 GP LE, and a '02 GTP, so I don't know what I'm talking about...

 

Shawn

[SleeperRed90TGp]

EDIT again:

here's a 1/4 mile list for TGP's(the first 13.XX time is NOT confirmed, the rest are actual runs...the TGP owner that ran the 13.XX was using nitrous supposedly).

http://members.aol.com/mv540paq/myhomepage/tgp.html

 

That site has been updated recently. If you can't read the time slip it's here. No nitrous.

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v297/sleeperred90tgp/TimeSlips10-27-04.jpg

 

Jud

[maybe2fast]

a dirt track won't hurt anything, I too am guilty of sloooow driving on dirt roads but it a dirt road is taken care of it can be just as smooth as a regular road.

[EurosportZ34]

thinking of a tgp as a "next" car.

 

lol, yeah you and pretty much everyone else on the board!

[terryk2003]

thinking of a tgp as a "next" car.

 

lol, yeah you and pretty much everyone else on the board!

 

:withstupid:

[RareGMFan]

That site has been updated recently. If you can't read the time slip it's here. No nitrous.

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v297/sleeperred90tgp/TimeSlips10-27-04.jpg

 

I don't think he was referring to you. He meant the other 13.xx that was up there (slightly faster then yours) before the updating. That one had no confirmation, thus, was taken off the list, and I believe was using nitrous.

 

I don't see how a 2nd Gen handles better than a 3rd gen??? A stock GTP does .83 on the skidpad, which is pretty much exactly the same as a TGP, and when you drive a TGP you can tell that the only reason it handles good is because of the 245/50 tires. The body leans so much its not even funny. A stock GTP would kill a TGP on a roadcourse. It handles just as well, stops BETTER, and goes faster. A stock GTP would kill a TGP at the dragstrip too. And believe me, there really isn't much of a heat problem with the L67 like everyone thinks. You put a colder t-stat in it and a fan switch and the engine will always be cold. TGP's have SO much maintenance its not even funny. I would own a 3rd gen over a 2nd gen any day.

 

I guess it depends on the GTP, doesn't it? I mean, why does everyone automatically hand the victory to the L67, even though I've seen LOTS of GTPs running low to high 15s stock (in signatures/clubgp times), & some times even worse than that? Meanwhile, we've seen that a stock, 15+ year old TSTE can pull of a 15 flat, stock (Jeorge). There are too many variables involved with motors/cars this close in stats to clearly say X should beat Y. There's maintenance, of course, inconsistencies from the factory, etc. Also, the age is huge factor. For example, do you have replacement struts on your car, or are you seriously comparing the body roll from the tired struts of your 15 year old TGP to that of a 2000 GTP? And more maintenance??? Of course! Again, you're comparing a car from '90 (usually not very well taken care of) to a car from '97 at its oldest. What I'm getting at is, if you could pin the fastest stock GTP on Earth when it was new against the fastest stock TGP when they were new, maybe you can say the GTP has a very slight advantage (likely, but not a definite by any stretch of the imagination; would like to have seen what Jeorge's TSTE could have done new). But when we're talking random cars from both, I don't think it's justifiable in any way to say one or the other should be the winner every time.

 

As for after market, as was said, Jeff M will be releasing what will hopefully be an onslaught of new performance parts. Besides that, it just takes some creativity, and talking to each other/sharing info to come up with our own, creative ways to bring out the strangled power from these motors. I'm glad to see a lot more of this going on lately (with more talk then ever about turbo replacements, rockers, etc). Hell, you yourself just made a HUGE contribution by completing that 3100 top end swap, something I'm sure many people here were wondering what the results of would be. That was a pretty nice net gain in times, and for what? How much did that entire swap cost you? I think these cars are easier and cheaper to mod then some may think. If a chip alone can knock that much time off, just imagine everything we know coming together on a TGP.

 

With that being said/out of the way, the skidpad on a stock TGP is .84. SO, what we really have here stock for stock, is both handle about the same, and both accelerate nearly the same. The only clear-cut advantage here is the braking going to the '97 & up GTPs. Not even gonna' argue that one. :shock: So for me, the issue is not performance in the GTP vs TGP debate.

 

The rest comes down to personal preference. I, myself, like the functions of the seats, the DIC (for the love of god, no retarded jokes, please :shock: ), and most importantly, the cosmetic appearance of the older ones. I'll take the looks of a B4U packaged, pre '97 GP over those of the best '97 & up GTP/GXP any day. I'm not saying I consider the newer ones ugly by any means. I think they look pretty damn nice in their own right (and were designed by a fellow Armenian ). They're just not as aggressive and eye catching to me as the older, B4U package GPs.

 

Aaaaaaaaand, end of thesis.

[Adam S.]

I wouldn't dare let my TGP see a dirttrack. :shock: Sounds fun, but I like keeping it clean.

 

Ditto. I'm the guy that drives 3mph down the dirt roads.

 

[

I don't see how a 2nd Gen handles better than a 3rd gen??? A stock GTP does .83 on the skidpad, which is pretty much exactly the same as a TGP, and when you drive a TGP you can tell that the only reason it handles good is because of the 245/50 tires. The body leans so much its not even funny. A stock GTP would kill a TGP on a roadcourse. It handles just as well, stops BETTER, and goes faster. A stock GTP would kill a TGP at the dragstrip too. And believe me, there really isn't much of a heat problem with the L67 like everyone thinks. You put a colder t-stat in it and a fan switch and the engine will always be cold. TGP's have SO much maintenance its not even funny. I would own a 3rd gen over a 2nd gen any day.

 

But we only have 3 TGP's, a '93 GP LE, and a '02 GTP, so I don't know what I'm talking about...

 

Shawn

 

Well you certainly don't know how to mod the TGP to surpass a GTP, but whatever...

 

I will not buy another GTP that's for sure piece of shit, as a matter of fact it's for sale for 18,000 canadian, 40th aniversary anyone want's it?

 

Adam S.

[no1kicker]

It's hard modding a TGP. After the few common mods, you have to get creative. I've had my STE for 3 years and I feel like I became a mechanic in the process sometimes. These cars IMO are not worth it if you pay someone else to work on it. I'll agree that there is more body roll than I like, even with new struts. I love the turbo sound with the K&N filter. Planning to upgrade to a GTP soon.

[dbtk2]

I wouldn't dare let my TGP see a dirttrack. :shock: Sounds fun, but I like keeping it clean.

 

Ditto. I'm the guy that drives 3mph down the dirt roads.

 

[

I don't see how a 2nd Gen handles better than a 3rd gen??? A stock GTP does .83 on the skidpad, which is pretty much exactly the same as a TGP, and when you drive a TGP you can tell that the only reason it handles good is because of the 245/50 tires. The body leans so much its not even funny. A stock GTP would kill a TGP on a roadcourse. It handles just as well, stops BETTER, and goes faster. A stock GTP would kill a TGP at the dragstrip too. And believe me, there really isn't much of a heat problem with the L67 like everyone thinks. You put a colder t-stat in it and a fan switch and the engine will always be cold. TGP's have SO much maintenance its not even funny. I would own a 3rd gen over a 2nd gen any day.

 

But we only have 3 TGP's, a '93 GP LE, and a '02 GTP, so I don't know what I'm talking about...

 

Shawn

 

Well you certainly don't know how to mod the TGP to surpass a GTP, but whatever...

 

I will not buy another GTP that's for sure piece of shit, as a matter of fact it's for sale for 18,000 canadian, 40th aniversary anyone want's it?

 

Adam S.

 

Yes, I must not know how to mod. I have one of the fastest TGPs on here, yet I don't know how to mod. My car went 14.96 stock, which is the fastest time I have EVER heard of for a stock TGP. The thing is, my car now, can barely pull on stock GTP's. And as far as I could tell, we were talking about stock vs. stock anyways. But GTP's with halfway decent drivers pull 14.3-14.5's OFTEN. Believe me, the money you put into a TGP to make it go fast, if you put half that much into a GTP it will gain twice as much time at the strip. Its a shame that you feel your car is a piece of shit. What all has gone wrong...it seems to me like that car would still be under warranty, since 40th Anniversaries were '02's. (unless it has high mileage or something)

 

With that being said/out of the way, the skidpad on a stock TGP is .84. SO, what we really have here stock for stock, is both handle about the same, and both accelerate nearly the same. The only clear-cut advantage here is the braking going to the '97 & up GTPs. Not even gonna' argue that one. So for me, the issue is not performance in the GTP vs TGP debate.

 

Well, the thing is, if you put the same tires on both cars, the GTP handles considerably better. I believe I said they handled pretty much the same, I was just saying that the only reason the TGP handles as well as it does is because of the low profile Z rated (stiffer sidewall) 245's. The GTP got H rated 225/60's, so basically a taller, narrower tire with a weaker sidewall. Acceleration however, is stupid to argue. How many people have run 14's in a stock TGP??? I can think of 1...me. There are hundreds of GTPs that have run 14's stock. I have personally seen a dozen or so run low-mid 14's stock. So really, I don't see how they do accelerate the same. Yeah, there may be some that only run low-mid 15's stock, but most of those are probably at higher altitudes, but you also have to think of the fact that some magazines could only manage 16.3's out of stock TGP's in '90.

 

I guess it depends on the GTP, doesn't it? I mean, why does everyone automatically hand the victory to the L67, even though I've seen LOTS of GTPs running low to high 15s stock (in signatures/clubgp times), & some times even worse than that? Meanwhile, we've seen that a stock, 15+ year old TSTE can pull of a 15 flat, stock (Jeorge). There are too many variables involved with motors/cars this close in stats to clearly say X should beat Y. There's maintenance, of course, inconsistencies from the factory, etc. Also, the age is huge factor. For example, do you have replacement struts on your car, or are you seriously comparing the body roll from the tired struts of your 15 year old TGP to that of a 2000 GTP? And more maintenance??? Of course! Again, you're comparing a car from '90 (usually not very well taken care of) to a car from '97 at its oldest. What I'm getting at is, if you could pin the fastest stock GTP on Earth when it was new against the fastest stock TGP when they were new, maybe you can say the GTP has a very slight advantage (likely, but not a definite by any stretch of the imagination; would like to have seen what Jeorge's TSTE could have done new). But when we're talking random cars from both, I don't think it's justifiable in any way to say one or the other should be the winner every time.

 

My STE only has 79k on it. It had 69k when I bought it ~10 months ago. When I ran my 14.96 stock it had ~72k on it. I see 100k mile GTPs run 14.5's stock often, I don't think mileage has a huge factor. My STE DOES have replacement struts. Not sure how old they are, but they aren't the originals. However, you are right, I am comparing the 15 year old cars maintenance to that of a 8 year old or less car, however thats the point I'm trying to make. A GTP would be a better buy even if it is a bit more pricey, due to the fact that its a newer car, and will probably have less miles. Thats the point I'm trying to make. If he saved up a little more money for a newer car it would cost him less in the long run.

 

As for after market, as was said, Jeff M will be releasing what will hopefully be an onslaught of new performance parts. Besides that, it just takes some creativity, and talking to each other/sharing info to come up with our own, creative ways to bring out the strangled power from these motors. I'm glad to see a lot more of this going on lately (with more talk then ever about turbo replacements, rockers, etc). Hell, you yourself just made a HUGE contribution by completing that 3100 top end swap, something I'm sure many people here were wondering what the results of would be. That was a pretty nice net gain in times, and for what? How much did that entire swap cost you? I think these cars are easier and cheaper to mod then some may think. If a chip alone can knock that much time off, just imagine everything we know coming together on a TGP.

 

There actually is quite an aftermarket for these cars if you start looking. But honestly, $ per $ an L67 is MUCH cheaper to mod. $1k into an L67 and you're running mid 13's. $1k into a LG5 and your running low-mid 14's..maybe.

 

You wanna know what that swap cost me? I don't really think you do. The swap, even though the topend was FREE because I was given a bad engien, cost me a little over a grand, although I didn't use the heads that were on that engine, I used some that I already had lying around that were completely rebuilt and had a valve job done on them, those cost me $110. All the parts for the engine came out to around $500. Thats for the head gaskets, intake gaskets, plenum gaskets, head bolts, cam, lifters, timing chain, dampner, sprockets. Then I had to buy a lot of mics. hoses to route coolant, some metal to make a EGR blockoff plate with, little stuff like that. I also put my UD pulley on at the same time ($120). 3100 Throttle Cable, $23. 3100 Power steering pump, $55. Had to buy a 3100 motor mount (the one that goes on teh side of the head), $20. New accessory belt. Oil & Filter, Coolant, Power steering fluid, $40. New Plugs & Wires, $40. New Coolant Temp sensor because I couldn't for the life of me get the one out of the old head, $25. It all added right up there. Not really that cheap. Do I have to add the amount of gas I had to put into the other TGP to pick up misc. parts that i needed along the way...that wasn't cheap either.

 

And the thing is, we can't really go very far before having to dump a lot of money into a new turbo. The stock turbo can't really flow much air. High 13's and were pretty much done.

 

I'm not knocking the TGP...afterall we do have 3 of them. I'm just saying that if someone is looking to buy a car, and can afford a GTP over a TGP, definately look into it, because in the long run its going to be cheaper. Thats just my opinion.

[Adam S.]

Wow DBTK2 You sure went out of your way to explain yoursef, I wonder why? Nevertheless a few pointers, this is not a stock car modifying board, It's hard to find one post that is about stock, we all mod our cars that is what we do so why you thought that I was talking about stock for stock? I don't know, as I said whatever...

 

Adam S.

 

[/code]

[dbtk2]

Wow DBTK2 You sure went out of your way to explain yoursef, I wonder why? Nevertheless a few pointers, this is not a stock car modifying board, It's hard to find one post that is about stock, we all mod our cars that is what we do so why you thought that I was talking about stock for stock? I don't know, as I said whatever...

 

Adam S.

 

You're right it is hard to find a car on here that is stock, I definately agree. But go on ClubGP and see how many of the GTP's there are stock. Obviously you have missed the point I have been trying to make all along. He said hes trying to find a cheap TGP, and me, along with at least one other person in this thread IIRC suggested that a '97 GTP might be a better candidate for modding, since thats what he seemed to be interested in. And it did seem to me like you were talking about stock vs. stock, since you were saying how they handled so much better than Gen III's.

 

And why do you say I went out of my way to explain myself? I don't see how that is... Maybe I went out of my way to explain myself in a way that YOU could understand, which obivously wasn't the case because you still didn't understand it.

 

You said I don't know how to mod a TGP, I asked you why you said that since I have one of the fastest ones on here. (BTW..you still didn't answer that one) Then I explained how even though it is one of the fastest on here I still just barely pull on stock GTP's. Then I also asked what kind of problems you were having with your GTP because you mentioned you were having problems, and I was interested in hearing about them. (you didn't answer that one either)

 

Then you said they accelerate nearly the same, and I explained to you YET AGAIN how they DON'T accelerate nearly the same. I am a member of the local GP club. I go to the dyno events, and at the last dyno event my chipped TGP coupe got out dynoed NUMEROUS times by stock GTP's. Then I go to the track events, and my stock STE is getting killed by stock GTP's and I'm having lightly modded GT's staying with me, Then I bring my chipped STE running 14.6's to another track event and it is getting beat yet again by stock GTP's, and getting SLAUGHTERED by GTP's with a couple hundred in mods.

 

Then someone else asked me a question about my topend swap, so I answered their question in detail because I figured I would give them as much info about it as I can since I have been asked about it a lot, and have not really given people much info on it since I've done it.

 

Now, I agree in this post I HAVE gone out of my way to explain myself, because even after the last post, with all that was in it, you still did not understand what I was saying, so I had to give even more detail. You say you wonder why I go out of my way to explain myself, I say its because you are not understand it the first time I explain it in depth.

 

Do you understand yet?

 

BTW...got any pics of the 40th Anniversary? Coupe or Sedan? Mileage? Condition? Whats wrong with it?

 

Look anything like our 40th:

 

Shawn

[Jeff M]

Ummm, Shawn, you car must of lost the race before this burn-out as your car has a black eye Yea I know its a cold air kinda thing 8) , that's cool, glad to see you are keeping cool. TGP (and TSTE) and GTPs, older brothers and younger brothers (always fighting ), all fun to own, fast slow or just for show. Is there a Supercharged GTP in the 10's yet, I know there is a turbo GTP running 10's, seen some pics that even showed it had an aluminum sub-frame, that GTP has had some brain power put to it as well, sweeeet! I think there is a Supercharged GTP close to the 10's, some bucks and work went into that terror.

 

Later

 

Jeff M

[dbtk2]

There is a CSC GP that has run a best of 10.9X, and there is a M90 (stock blower) powered GTP that has run a best of 10.87 IIRC. It was only a few weeks ago when he ran that time. Actually, it was done on the same day at the same track that the pic above was taken at. The Intense turbo GP is down to 10.1's now.

 

Shawn

[Jeff M]

There is a CSC GP that has run a best of 10.9X, and there is a M90 (stock blower) powered GTP that has run a best of 10.87 IIRC. It was only a few weeks ago when he ran that time. Actually, it was done on the same day at the same track that the pic above was taken at. The Intense turbo GP is down to 10.1's now.

 

Shawn

 

Thats great news for us FWD/USA Boys, Asians have had all the good times, and now its our times. Though kind of a joke to call a 1,000hp sport compact Cavi motor an Ecotec but GM has never been very smart with their business, next they have one of those hack-job body style Caddies with millions of bucks into it so it can run fast like their competition has been for years. Anyways, somewhat staying with the topic, really like to know how much bucks and the hours it took to finalize the setups on those fast GTPs, bet it would make some of our hard work sound like a simple spark plug change

 

Thanks for the info, must have been an "intense" day being at that track the same time with your car(s) and those other GTPs 8) .

 

Jeff M

[RareGMFan]

Alright, guys. Come on. I know everyone has their preferences (and obviously mine is the TGP/TSTE), and gets protective/defensive about them, but....Adam....relax. Despite the fact that I don't necessarily agree with all of it, I don't think anything dbk posted was unwarranted. I typed up a long explaination of how the TGPs and TSTEs don't get their due credit a lot of times, and he merely repsonded with detailed defense for his view. There's nothing wrong with that. That's what any half-way intelligent conversation is supposed to be comprised of. And we were discussing stock vs. stock, with a side discussion of ease and cost of modding. But anyway, getting back to the convo at hand....

 

 

Acceleration however, is stupid to argue. How many people have run 14's in a stock TGP??? I can think of 1...me. There are hundreds of GTPs that have run 14's stock. I have personally seen a dozen or so run low-mid 14's stock. So really, I don't see how they do accelerate the same. Yeah, there may be some that only run low-mid 15's stock, but most of those are probably at higher altitudes, but you also have to think of the fact that some magazines could only manage 16.3's out of stock TGP's in '90.

 

I think it's far from stupid to argue for several reasons. Look at a page for GTP 1/4 times vs. the only page we have (mfewtrail's). How can you make that a fair comparison to base judgement off of? Fow all we know, if we had a couple thousand TGPs listed, we could have had several stock 14's, too. Pinning the results of 15-20 TGP/TSTEs versus thousands upon thousands of newer GTPs is hardily a level bases to draw conclusions from. I'm not saying the average wouldn't be in favor of the GTPs, but I do believe it wouldn't be as drastic as everyone makes it out to be.

 

And I don't think elevation is an available excuse for every slow stock (and in some cases, moddified) GTP out there. As for the TGPs that could only manage a 16.3.....all I can say is....I find it very strange, that after 15 years and quite a few miles, there are turbo GPs running LESS than the best of 15.3 the magazines' drivers managed. It seems odd, that with cracked crossover pipes, clogged/dirty injectors, cheap tires, etc. there are still TGP/TSTEs running the same low to mid 15s stock that the new ones supposedly only did. Who knows what the issue was. All I know is that 65 extra hp should do better than knock one second off the n/a 1/4 mile time, so who knows what happened there.

 

However, you are right, I am comparing the 15 year old cars maintenance to that of a 8 year old or less car, however thats the point I'm trying to make. A GTP would be a better buy even if it is a bit more pricey, due to the fact that its a newer car, and will probably have less miles. Thats the point I'm trying to make. If he saved up a little more money for a newer car it would cost him less in the long run.

 

Yes and no. While less mileage usually equals less damage, I've read PLENTY of accounts of trannys going out on bone stock GTPs, fuel resistor issue, s/c going out, etc. My sister wanted to get a '97 & up GTP a year ago, but after reading some of the horror stories on the local boards, she elected to stick with her '95 SE. While it is unfortunate that most of the TGPs were in the hands of morons before people that cared about them got ahold of them, newer GTPs are far from immune to the disease of poor maintenance, and lazy owners. Let's not forget that, now that they're affordable to most, a great many GTPs have been owned by kids who have no doubt beaten the living piss out of them mechanically, no matter how many purdy reflective decals, and 18" rims, or SS grill inserts they've put on them.

 

But GTP's with halfway decent drivers pull 14.3-14.5's OFTEN. Believe me, the money you put into a TGP to make it go fast, if you put half that much into a GTP it will gain twice as much time at the strip....$ per $ an L67 is MUCH cheaper to mod. $1k into an L67 and you're running mid 13's. $1k into a LG5 and your running low-mid 14's..maybe.

 

See, this is where you and I don't see eye to eye. I politely disagree on 2 accounts:

 

1. That you can't get a TGP into the 13s with $1,000. I'll explain why further below in this post.

 

2. I don't buy for a second that putting $1,000 into any '97 & up GTP will put you at mid 13s. I think there are FAR more exceptions to that rule than you're giving credit for. I'm also a member of not one, but TWO local GP groups, ILGPC (of which, I'm the only member with a pre '97 GP ), and CGPC. While many of the GTPs have hit 13s, there are plenty others who have done quite a bit of work, and are still in the 14s. Hell, don't take my word for it. These are right off of the main clubgp:

 

Can you tell me how much it cost to get this GTP to 14.5?. And that's a 2002 with only 26K miles on it.

 

Or how about this one?

 

In fact, there's quite a few pages of mid 14+ second GTPs, in spite of the year and mileage, and in a LOT of cases, decent amount of mods.

 

You wanna know what that swap cost me? I don't really think you do. The swap cost me a little over a grand, although I didn't use the heads that were on that engine, I used some that I already had lying around that were completely rebuilt and had a valve job done on them, those cost me $110. All the parts for the engine came out to around $500. 3100 Throttle Cable, $23. 3100 Power steering pump, $55. Had to buy a 3100 motor mount, $20. New accessory belt. Oil & Filter, Coolant, Power steering fluid, $40. New Plugs & Wires, $40. New Coolant Temp sensor because I couldn't for the life of me get the one out of the old head, $25.

 

Here in lies the problem. Don't take this the wrong way, but.....you made that project cost WAY too much. Looking over your list, unless you've left some very expensive items out, I could literally have gotten everything it took to do that swap for about $500, with change probably left over. You gotta' be shrewd. There's junkyards with very late model motors (low mileage, and gauranteed/tested to be running), and some of those are very cheap. I could probably pick up an ENTIRE 3100, all accessories included (PS pump, motor mounts, accessory belt, etc), for $200-$300 at the right yards. There's eBay for many of the miscellenous stuff (gaskets, temp sensor, etc), where things go dirt cheap. I can get parts from GM at wholesale, but that's a personal advantage, so I won't use that as a method of reducing costs for this argument's sake. And not that they added a ton of money, but I don't know that I would include things like the oil/filter, accessory belt, coolant, plugs & wires, etc as part of the cost. I'd kind of consider those as part of the maintenance.

 

So...for mods, as long as your TGP is in 100% OEM running condition, we've got....

 

Top Gun 160 chip: $275

FFP UD pulley: $120

AM cat & mufflers: $200

3100 top end swap: Around $500

 

Total: $1,095

Results: High 13s.

 

I don't consider that too shabby.

 

 

Ok....that took way too long to edit and type up. I'll continue this train of thought later. Right now, I'm starving...... :shock:

[Adam S.]

Hyeboy I'm relaxed always have been. Remember the following what is written on a forum as 1/4 mile times are false, in my eyes. I don't believe 98% percent of stuff that is written on any board. (Jeff M is the only 2% I know)

DTBK there is nothing wrong with my 40th other than it's a piece of shit.

 

I lost my pic from GPG 02, but I'll take some and upload it later tonight.

 

Adam S. [/img]