ugent question on A/C compressor

[GPRACER]

R-12 production ended January 1, 1996

[Whiskey River]

R-12 production ended January 1, 1996

 

Your point is...? I never said that R12 was still being produced in the US, now it is in Mexico and other countries.

[GPRACER]

 

How old are you? It may not affect you but what about children or grandchildren.

 

Cars represent 50% of all CFC emissions globally.

 

I am 26, but I don't see the need to be a tree hugger....

 

I am far from a tree hugger believe me, but with car numbers approaching 1 billion globally and aprox 85% of those with A/C people would have to be blind not to see the potential problems and the need for CFC control.

 

If proper techniques are used all refrigerant and A/C systems can be environmentally safe.

[GPRACER]

R-12 production ended January 1, 1996

 

Your point is...? I never said that R12 was still being produced in the US, now it is in Mexico and other countries.

 

Most if the R-12 in the USA is being smuggled in from Mexico, and that is illegal.

[Whiskey River]

R-12 production ended January 1, 1996

 

Your point is...? I never said that R12 was still being produced in the US, now it is in Mexico and other countries.

 

Most if the R-12 in the USA is being smuggled in from Mexico, and that is illegal.

 

I would have to disagree with the "Most" comment. The R12 that is reclaimed by shops, unless contaminated with other refrigerants, is recycled and used again, although the process isn't exact and you may wind up with R12 that is only 98 or 97 percent pure.

 

But now it sounds like your argument is changing, before you flatly stated that R12 was illegal, now it's illegal because it is smuggled in from Mexico. Which is it? I know that the stuff coming in from Mexico is illegal. Any reputable shop wouldn't touch that 2nd rate stuff.

[GPRACER]

It is illegal. The USA signed the Montreal Protocol in 1987. While every state and province may have different laws governing the use of existing R-12, the bottom line is Virgin R-12 is illegal.

 

I'm just stating what I am learning today. Many of the regulations changed in 2001. I'm not trying to be argumentative here just stating some facts as they are. Most shops selling "R-12" use the words "R-12" because people know what it is, in reality most shops are using regulated alternatives.

 

Canada is way ahead on this issue, probably because we have A LOT less cars and people to regulate and educate. You are going to see a lot of changes in the future. And eventually all the cars with R-12 will cease to exist anyways. R-134a will be phased out and replaced by something safer before the year 2020.

[GPRACER]

R-12 is colder yes, but it kills ozone, R-134a does not kill ozone, but it does contribute to global warming.

 

 

.....so what?

 

I like this comment,

 

CFC's can have a lifespan anywhere from 60-400 years in the atmosphere. 1 CFC molecule can kill up to 100,000 ozone molecules. We are gonna need a lot of sunblock if this continues.

[Whiskey River]

It is illegal. The USA signed the Montreal Protocol in 1987. While every state and province may have different laws governing the use of existing R-12, the bottom line is Virgin R-12 is illegal.

 

R-12 manufactured before 1996 is still legal for sale and consumption in the US to those who possses the proper certs. No NEW R12 has been manufactured since.

 

I'm just stating what I am learning today. Many of the regulations changed in 2001. I'm not trying to be argumentative here just stating some facts as they are. Most shops selling "R-12" use the words "R-12" because people know what it is, in reality most shops are using regulated alternatives.

 

If you come to the US and ask for R12, most shops will suggest changing over to R134 unless you need the system topped off, in which case they will use virgin R12, if they have it, otherwise, they will use recycled R12, typically found in 30-50 lb. containers.

 

Canada is way ahead on this issue, probably because we have A LOT less cars and people to regulate and educate. You are going to see a lot of changes in the future. And eventually all the cars with R-12 will cease to exist anyways. R-134a will be phased out and replaced by something safer before the year 2020.

 

Canada also allows the use of HCs or Hydrocarbons, to those that don't know. These are typically Butane, Methane, or Propane. And yes, work is in progress to go to something more inert than any of the current products. CO2 was a possibility but it would require system pressures over 400psi and potentially water cooled condensors to get the proper pressure differential.

[GPRACER]

Good points, Canada does allow use of hydrocarbons, but only a small percentage of the total refrigerant in a retrofitted system.

[GPRACER]

I can remember when do-it-yourselfers coud buy 1 pound bottles of refrigerant, now I believe the minimum size is something like 22 pounds, also some of the more reputable Canadian scrap yards require a certification number from a person in order to sell you A/C parts, in an effort to keep untrained people from releasing CFC's and/or HCFC's into the atmosphere.

[GPRACER]

Document ID# 223857

1994 Chevrolet/Geo Lumina

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

RETROFITTING R-12 VEHICLES TO R-134A (INFORMATIONAL) #33-12-26 - (12/22/1993)

---------------------------------------------------------------------- REVISION 01/18/94

 

THIS BULLETIN HAS BEEN REVISED TO PROVIDE ADDITIONAL INFORMATION IN THE "RESIDUAL MINERAL OIL" SECTION. ----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

SUBJECT: RETROFITTING R-12 VEHICLES TO R-134A

 

MODELS: 1994 AND PRIOR YEARS, PASSENGER CARS AND TRUCKS WITH R-12 A/C SYSTEMS

 

THERE HAS BEEN A GREAT DEAL OF INFORMATION PRESENTED BY THE MEDIA REGARDING THE NEED TO RETROFIT VEHICLES PRODUCED WITH R-12, TO A SUBSTITUTE REFRIGERANT. THIS BULLETIN WILL OUTLINE GM'S POSITION AND FUTURE PLANS ON THIS SUBJECT.

 

**MOST IMPORTANT, THERE IS CURRENTLY NO REQUIREMENT TO RETROFIT ANY R-12 VEHICLE. VEHICLES BUILT WITH R-12 CAN BE SERVICED WITH R-12, AS LONG AS THE REFRIGERANT IS AVAILABLE.** AT SOME POINT IN TIME, R-12 MAY BECOME EITHER TOO SCARCE OR TOO EXPENSIVE TO ECONOMICALLY JUSTIFY SERVICE ON SOME VEHICLES WITH R-12. BY THAT TIME, GM WILL PROVIDE YOU WITH INSTRUCTIONS ON RETROFITTING THOSE VEHICLES FROM R-12 TO R-134A.

 

GM VEHICLE DIVISIONS, PLATFORMS, AND COMPONENT SUPPLIERS HAVE BEEN ACTIVELY WORKING ON THE DETAILS OF RETROFITTING R-12 VEHICLES. AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF WORK IS REQUIRED TO DETERMINE HOW HUNDREDS OF VEHICLE MODELS CAN BE SATISFACTORILY RETROFITTED. ADDITIONAL INFORMATION WILL BE PROVIDED AS IT BECOMES AVAILABLE.

 

THE FOLLOWING ITEMS CONTAIN IMPORTANT TECHNICAL INFORMATION THAT SHOULD ANSWER MANY OF THE QUESTIONS, AND CORRECT SOME MISCONCEPTIONS REPORTED IN THE MEDIA.

 

SUBSTITUTE REFRIGERANTS

 

R-134A IS THE **ONLY** APPROVED SUBSTITUTE REFRIGERANT THAT GM RECOMMENDS AND IT SHOULD ONLY BE USED IF A COMPLETE RETROFIT PROCEDURE HAS BEEN PERFORMED. **NONE OF THE OTHER REFRIGERANTS CURRENTLY BEING MARKETED AS REPLACEMENT OR DROP-IN SUBSTITUTES FOR R-12 ARE APPROVED FOR USE IN GM VEHICLES.**

 

R-12 AND R-134A ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE. R-134A CANNOT BE ADDED TO FILL A LOW R-12 SYSTEM. THE COMBINATION OF THE TWO MATERIALS CAN CAUSE HIGH SYSTEM PRESSURES, WHICH COULD CAUSE DAMAGE TO THE SYSTEM.

 

RETROFITTING AN R-12 VEHICLE TO R-134A REQUIRES CAREFUL PREPARATION TO INSURE THAT NEITHER THE VEHICLE NOR THE A/C SERVICE EQUIPMENT HAS BECOME CONTAMINATED.

 

RESIDUAL MINERAL OIL

 

THE CONCERN THAT MINERAL OIL IS CHEMICALLY INCOMPATIBLE WITH R-134A AND/OR PAG LUBRICANT HAS BEEN PROVEN TO BE UNTRUE. A NORMAL CHARGE OF MINERAL OIL LEFT IN THE A/C SYSTEM AFTER A RETROFIT TO R-134A WILL NOT DAMAGE THE SYSTEM. MINERAL OIL, HOWEVER, DOES NOT MIX WELL WITH R- 134A, AND WILL NOT PROVIDE ADEQUATE LUBRICATION. TESTS ON BOTH THE ORIFICE TUBE AND TXV SYSTEMS SHOW THAT THE MINERAL OIL PARKS IN PLACES SUCH AS THE ACCUMULATOR, AND DOES NOT APPRECIABLY AFFECT PERFORMANCE OR DAMAGE THE SYSTEM. THE RETROFIT SERVICE BULLETIN WILL SPECIFY THE CORRECT OIL TO BE USED. IT IS IMPORTANT THAT THIS OIL RECOMMENDATION BE FOLLOWED CAREFULLY.

 

RESIDUAL R-12

 

RESIDUAL R-12 LEFT IN A SYSTEM, DUE TO IMPROPER RETROFIT SERVICE PROCEDURES, MAY RESULT IN SYSTEM DAMAGE UNLESS THE RESIDUAL R-12 IS KEPT BELOW THE 2 PERCENT LIMIT SPECIFIED BY THE SOCIETY OF AUTOMOTIVE ENGINEERING'S SPECIFICATION J-1661. NEW SERVICE METHODS ARE BEING DEVELOPED TO MINIMIZE THE LEVEL OF R-12 REMAINING IN THE A/C SYSTEM AFTER THE RETROFIT PROCEDURE IS COMPLETED. FOLLOWING THESE NEW PROCEDURES WILL BE CRITICAL TO INSURE THAT THE ABOVE LIMITS ARE MET.

 

SYSTEM FLUSHING

 

R-11, A MATERIAL COMMONLY USED AS AN A/C SYSTEM FLUSHING SOLVENT, HAS BEEN FOUND TO BE CHEMICALLY INCOMPATIBLE WITH PAG LUBRICANT. TECHNICIANS SHOULD BE AWARE THAT RESIDUAL R-11 REMAINING IN AN R-12 SYSTEM WILL BE VERY DAMAGING IF THE VEHICLE IS RETROFITTED TO R-134A LATER IN ITS LIFE. FOR MANY YEARS GM HAS RECOMMENDED THE USE OF IN-LINE FILTERS AS AN ALTERNATIVE TO SYSTEM FLUSHING.

 

**SYSTEM FLUSHING, USING EITHER R-11 OR ANY OTHER FLUSHING MATERIAL, IS NOT APPROVED BY GM FOR ANY A/C SYSTEM.**

 

DESICCANT PROTECTION

 

IT HAS BEEN REPORTED THAT THE DESICCANT (MOISTURE ABSORPTION MATERIAL) USED IN 1992 AND OLDER R-12 A/C SYSTEMS IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH R-134A AND PAG OIL. THE OLDER DESICCANT WAS DESIGNED SPECIFICALLY FOR R-12 SYSTEMS, BUT TESTING HAS SHOWN THAT IT IS **NOT** NECESSARY TO REPLACE THE OLDER DESICCANT JUST BECAUSE THE VEHICLE IS BEING RETROFITTED TO R-134A. 1993 AND NEWER GM VEHICLES USE DESICCANT DESIGNED TO BE COMPATIBLE WITH BOTH R-12 AND R-134A SYSTEMS.

 

THE AMOUNT OF DESICCANT USED IN MOST GM VEHICLES IS DESIGNED TO LAST FOR AT LEAST SEVEN YEARS. TO HELP MAINTAIN ADEQUATE PROTECTION FOR VEHICLES THAT MUST BE RETROFITTED, IT IS RECOMMENDED THAT THE ACCUMULATOR/DRYER, WHICH CONTAINS THE DESICCANT, BE REPLACED IF THE VEHICLE IS MORE THAN FIVE YEARS OLD.

 

"O" RINGS

 

WHILE CONTINUING TO SERVICE WITH R-12, BE SURE TO USE "O" RINGS AND SEAL MATERIALS WHICH ARE COMPATIBLE WITH R-134A AND PAG OIL. THIS PRACTICE WILL ELIMINATE CONCERN IN CASE THE VEHICLE REQUIRES RETROFITTING LATER IN ITS LIFE. ALL "O" RINGS AND SEAL MATERIALS AVAILABLE FROM GMSPO ARE COMPATIBLE WITH R-134A SYSTEMS.

 

RETROFITTED SYSTEM PERFORMANCE

 

CURRENTLY, IT APPEARS THAT FOR MOST GM VEHICLES, THE RETROFIT PROCEDURE WILL REQUIRE MINIMAL CHANGES TO THE EXISTING SYSTEM. SOME VEHICLES MAY NEED ADDITIONAL PARTS AND/OR PROCEDURES TO PROVIDE ACCEPTABLE PERFORMANCE AND/OR DURABILITY. OUR TESTING HAS SHOWN THAT VEHICLES THAT HAVE UNDERGONE RECOMMENDED RETROFIT PROCEDURES WILL, IN MOST CLIMATIC CONDITIONS, BE MINIMALLY AFFECTED IN TERMS OF A/C PERFORMANCE.

 

SERVICE POLICY

 

BASIC SERVICE POLICY IS AS FOLLOWS:

 

DURING WARRANTY - IF AN R-12 PRODUCED VEHICLE A/C SYSTEM MUST BE REPAIRED OR RECHARGED UNDER WARRANTY, REPAIRS WILL BE COMPLETED USING R-12. IF R-12 IS UNAVAILABLE OR UNAFFORDABLE, GM WILL NOTIFY THE DEALER BODY AND WILL PAY FOR THE WARRANTY REPAIR AND THE RETROFIT TO R-134A.

 

NOTE: IF A CUSTOMER REQUESTS THAT AN IN-WARRANTY VEHICLE BE CONVERTED TO R-134A, AND THE R-12 SYSTEM IS FUNCTIONING PROPERLY, THE CUSTOMER WILL BE EXPECTED TO PAY FOR THE RETROFIT.

 

OUT OF WARRANTY - THE COST OF THE CONVERSION WILL BE THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE CUSTOMER.

 

FIGURES: 0

 

GENERAL MOTORS BULLETINS ARE INTENDED FOR USE BY PROFESSIONAL TECHNICIANS, NOT A "DO-IT-YOURSELFER". THEY ARE WRITTEN TO INFORM THOSE TECHNICIANS OF CONDITIONS THAT MAY OCCUR ON SOME VEHICLES, OR TO PROVIDE INFORMATION THAT COULD ASSIST IN THE PROPER SERVICE OF A VEHICLE. PROPERLY TRAINED TECHNICIANS HAVE THE EQUIPMENT, TOOLS, SAFETY INSTRUCTIONS AND KNOW-HOW TO DO A JOB PROPERLY AND SAFELY. IF A CONDITION IS DESCRIBED, DO NOT ASSUME THAT THE BULLETIN APPLIES TO YOUR VEHICLE, OR THAT YOUR VEHICLE WILL HAVE THAT CONDITION. SEE A GENERAL MOTORS DEALER SERVICING YOUR BRAND OF GENERAL MOTORS VEHICLE FOR INFORMATION ON WHETHER YOUR VEHICLE MAY BENEFIT FROM THE INFORMATION.

 

COPYRIGHT 1993 GENERAL MOTORS CORPORATION. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

 

 

 

GM bulletins are intended for use by professional technicians, NOT a "do-it-yourselfer". They are written to inform these technicians of conditions that may occur on some vehicles, or to provide information that could assist in the proper service of a vehicle. Properly trained technicians have the equipment, tools, safety instructions, and know-how to do a job properly and safely. If a condition is described, DO NOT assume that the bulletin applies to your vehicle, or that your vehicle will have that condition. See your GM dealer for information on whether your vehicle may benefit from the information.

WE SUPPORT VOLUNTARY TECHNICIAN CERTIFICATION

 

 

© Copyright General Motors Corporation. All Rights Reserved.

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Document ID# 223857

1994 Chevrolet/Geo Lumina

[GP1138]

REVISION 01/18/94

 

You don't think any new information has been discovered in ten years?

[Whiskey River]

I can remember when do-it-yourselfers coud buy 1 pound bottles of refrigerant, now I believe the minimum size is something like 22 pounds, also some of the more reputable Canadian scrap yards require a certification number from a person in order to sell you A/C parts, in an effort to keep untrained people from releasing CFC's and/or HCFC's into the atmosphere.

 

That is the difference between Canada and the US. You can buy all the AC parts you need over the counter here, but you need a cert to get R-12. You can still get R-12 in a 12oz can but it is 2nd hand. Any CFC or HCFC refrigerant needs a cert to purchase, HFC can be purchased over the counter and HCs are mostly banned outright as most of them pose a fammability hazard.

[DaveFromColorado]

it's illegal to manufacture R-12 in the USA, and illegal to import newly manufactured R-12, it's not illegal to own, use, or buy, or sell recycled R-12.

 

R-12 will last an extremely long time, and in a "closed" system with no leaks, you will NEVER see a problem in the atmosphere from R-12.

 

The effects of chlorine-fluorine-carbon mixtures on the upper atmosphere aren't nearly as harmful as other chemicals poured into the atmosphere found naturally 'round the world, such items as sulfer from volcanos, or toluene used in gasoline (which doesn't burn) and then released from automobiles.

 

The Ozone layer has also been proven to regenerate naturally.

 

R-12 does in fact blow colder when used in automotive systems, takes less energy to use, and because of the larger molecules R-12 has a lower chance of leaking.

 

--Dave

[Whiskey River]

it's illegal to manufacture R-12 in the USA, and illegal to import newly manufactured R-12, it's not illegal to own, use, or buy, or sell recycled R-12.

 

This is what I have been saying. Only the purchasing is restricted to those who are certified.

[DaveFromColorado]

exactly, but I thought I'd put it in terms everyone could understand.

 

--Dave.

[Dannymik]

this has gone out of control! get me the f**k out of here

[THe_DeTAiL3R]

Hi Guys!

 

Thanks for whoring up my thread

 

Got it taken to the shop today (Bridgeview, the best place in town... hell they would probably fix a broken 3.4 100%) so anyways they adjusted and greased the clutch.. it was too close to the bearings or something (that is what my dad told me anyways). I was not there to ask questions, drove the van to work.. But anyways its quiet now like it was before and $40 fix isn't bad at all. I'm just happy that its running back to normal safe and it didn't take a long time.

 

ps. I want to get my A/C working, but next summer.

[sswisley]

my 97 gtp has had that noise from the ac clutch being bad. i didn't replace it and then last night the ac pulley seized up and broke the belt! when i replaced the belt the pully wouldn't move so the car wouldn't start. im just going to bypass the ac for now since its cold out. i was told i had to buy an ac bypass pulley, did you? how did you do it with a shorter belt?

[urbex]

Holy old thread!

 

Beings that this thread is about 8 years old and the members from back then are pretty much gone, I think you'll be best with a new thread.