phantomFE3 Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 i got to thinking the other day.. what if you had a fuel injected car, and you wanted forced induction but you didnt want to spend a few grand on a turbo or a SC. i got to thinking.... compressed air? you could have a tank in the trunk, set at like say.. 5 psi, the bigger the tank the better. you could route the air line to the intake, just like if you had a CAI, but had a special valve or flap, like a 1 way air flap thing that would let air in but not out. if if you were going to make a run, you would get up to the staing lines, open the air valve to let the air through, and it would be like having 5 psi of boost without the turbo lag, it would be right there. or even better, have like a 10 gallon or so air tank, and then have a 5 (or whatever, 7 or 9, depnding on how much you wanna put through) PSI line limiter, so you would have a constant supply of the air, like if you had the tanks at 60 psi, you would have a constant supply of 5psi in the air line. seems too easy to me? is there something im over looking? and all youd have to do it hook it to an air compressor and BAM you instantly have your boost back. plus the air would be in the trunk, and if you compress the air into the tank right before a run, the air would be all nice and cold, soyou would have a nice cold dense charge of air. alot easier/cheaper than a turbo or a supercharger, and it seems like it would be more effective as well, if you want 7 psi, just get a 7 psi line limiter, quick and easy changes. all the parts you need would be easy to get and install. what do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loominaz34 Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 You would run a tank dry on the way out of the driveway. There's no way you could get enough air into any size tank. Cool idea, tough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robby1870 Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 can you imagine if you had a wreck and one of those tanks exploded somewhere near the gas which was leaking b/c of the wreck?!?! KaBoooooooooom! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slick Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 I remember a person talking about this on another board about a year ago..... Dumb idea. Won't work. Spend money on a SC/turbo. Also, another dumb idea is a weekwacker engine spinning a fan in the intake tube...... People are dumb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henschman Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 an air tank couldn't provide sustained boost at 5psi for more than a few sec's. Yes, they hold like 100/200 psi, but that would be gone in no time if you had a hose the size of you're throttle body attached to it. A supercharger setup doesn't necessarily have to cost 3 grand. You can get a used one off ebay or elsewhere for really cheap. I saw a guy with a beretta who rigged up an m62 off a 95 3800 sc on his 3.1. He just cut a hole the size of the blower outlet in his intake manifold (perfect for the 3.1 cause it has a nice wide mani) and made a gasket, then welded/bolted the sc to it. He might have put a plate in between the sc and mani, i don't remember. He had to take the throttle body off the mani and put it on the sc. O well it definately didn't cost anywhere near 3000. If i was u, i'd buy the sc off a t-bird sc. Then you can route the boost through a front mount ic and right into the throttle body. Plenty of room to mount the sc on top of your intake mani. You'd have to cut a hole in your hood for it though. Look at one of those sc's on ebay or sccoa.com and you'll see what i'm talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slick Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 an air tank couldn't provide sustained boost at 5psi for more than a few sec's. Yes, they hold like 100/200 psi, but that would be gone in no time if you had a hose the size of you're throttle body attached to it. A supercharger setup doesn't necessarily have to cost 3 grand. You can get a used one off ebay or elsewhere for really cheap. I saw a guy with a beretta who rigged up an m62 off a 95 3800 sc on his 3.1. He just cut a hole the size of the blower outlet in his intake manifold (perfect for the 3.1 cause it has a nice wide mani) and made a gasket, then welded/bolted the sc to it. He might have put a plate in between the sc and mani, i don't remember. He had to take the throttle body off the mani and put it on the sc. You speak of Mcgavinz26, or I think that's his name from the beretta boards. Also, he has a 3400 that was nicely modded before the blower was put on. He did the set-up to where it was the ultimate bolt-on(meaning, he doesn't drive around with the blower on too often, can easily take it off and on, with the belt and all in like 1 hour.) I think if you do a yahoo search, look for the ghetto beretta, or 3400 something along those lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 the cheapest way to add boost to a 2.8 or 3.1 would be to simply spend a few hundred dollars on used Turbo Grand Prix parts and bolt them to your current NA 2.8 'W' or 3.1 'T' engine. do a few changes to the wiring harness, plug the TGP memcal in, and off you go.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveFromColorado Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 I kept thinking about adding this setup to my old 88 Regal 2.8 and putting in a one-way checkvalve setup on the factory MAP sensor, and then keeping the mas air meter in place and see how well that'd work at ~6 intercooled lbs of boost - but I sold the car. I think the mas air meter would've kept it pretty close as long as I didn't max out the meter itself. I was also thinking if you were to do a compressed air thing, if you were to place it just right 'round the injectors (like the NOS Port Injection kits) you may be able to atomize the gasoline a little better, but that'd be about it. --DaveFromColorado. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carotop Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 Well that wouldn't give you any boost the mix would just get messed up and you'd have to get some high flow fuel injectors and a better fuel pump wouldn't you? Now I was thinkin a controled port system NOS so you'd have to push the button like regular NOS cuz the port systems run the NOS all the time don't they so you can't drive it on the street Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maybe2fast Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 are there any pics of this sc Beretta? So...we finally determined that a N/A 3.1 is strong enough to take a 3.1 turbo set up? no crank or piston modification? just get the parts and bolt them on and boom turbo 3.1? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slick Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 Ok, found the website: http://www.angelfire.com/super/ghettoretta/3400.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveFromColorado Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 Well that wouldn't give you any boost the mix would just get messed up and you'd have to get some high flow fuel injectors and a better fuel pump wouldn't you? Now I was thinkin a controled port system NOS so you'd have to push the button like regular NOS cuz the port systems run the NOS all the time don't they so you can't drive it on the street to which part are you talking? if you're talking about the "air pressure" thing then yes, it may mess up the mix a little, but by adding air right at the injector it'd blow past the fuel, atomizing it quickly - but the extra air could hurt the mixture. Larger injectors and a Fuel pump may work, but not for that same purpose, you'd end up too fat all the time and you'd carbonize your pistons, foul out yer plugs, and trash your catalytic converter. If you were to add the turbocharger and have the 1-way valve setup for the MAP sensor so you don't spike it with boost pressures, with a small bleed off valve so the sensor will still sense the corret ammount of vacuum, and then use the mass air flow sensor to decide how much air is entering the engine for the turbocharger, I think you'd be safe. You'd have to have a manual boost regulator set to a lower number, and then intercool it so the heated air wouldn't cause too much knock then I think you'd be on the safe side with the factory injectors. The only thing I MAY have done in addition to that is add some "extra" injectors run thru an external injector driver which is metered VIA boost and picking up extra fuel from the schrader valve. Kinda like the way Whipple does it for the trucks. it'd have been a fun project, but I didn't have enough money at the time. --DaveFromColorado. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maybe2fast Posted September 7, 2004 Report Share Posted September 7, 2004 so we are talking about a 3.1 or 3.4 so that is 3.1 or 3.4 liters per every two revolutions. so... at 5500 RPM x 3.1 liters/2 Revolutions= 8,525 liters of air per minute thats 1875.5 gallons of air per minute I think that solves that idea or slaughtered it... thats at stardard temp and pressure of corse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveFromColorado Posted September 7, 2004 Report Share Posted September 7, 2004 the measurement of engine displacement is done at 720 degrees not 360 degrees, so already you're trying to double the ammount of air it's taking in per minute. your calculation of the engine pulling in that much air would also account for a 0 vacuum condition in the manifold, so basically you'd have direct access to the cylinder from the outside with unlimited air directly arround the cylinder with no loss of pressure from the surrounding air. this would also require you to have 100% VE in the engine - not taking into account left over exhaust gasses, displacement for fuel things like that. Please, check your figures and recalculate before you put your foot in your mouth again. --DaveFromColorado Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maybe2fast Posted September 7, 2004 Report Share Posted September 7, 2004 alright, well lets see Dave's calculation and that was an estimated calculation of how that would never work, but thank you Dave for that insightful analysis of my short comings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantomFE3 Posted September 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2004 1875 gallons of air eh? youd only use the compressed air for around 15 seconds, (1/4 mile) so thats 468 gallons of air used per 15 seconds, i bet you could fit 468 gallons of air into a 30 gallon tank of compressed air, thats about a 15:1 compression ratio, HMM! i still think it can be done. once i get enough $$ and a fuel injected car ill have to test it out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted September 7, 2004 Report Share Posted September 7, 2004 good luck passing tech inspection with a 30 gallon tank of compressed air in the trunk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THe_DeTAiL3R Posted September 8, 2004 Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 Wouldn't the tank/air compressor outweigh the benefits of the air it can produce? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slick Posted September 8, 2004 Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 Wouldn't the tank/air compressor outweigh the benefits of the air it can produce? Most likely, yes.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveFromColorado Posted September 8, 2004 Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 any way you look at it, it doesn't seem to be a good idea, unless you use something like a small 5 gallon tank and the N2O port injection jet kits (the kind that the injectors fit in) and pump air in, right at the injectors to help better atomize the fuel - you'd get a cleaner burn, and more power in the longrun. They've already done something similar to this in the newer cavaliers - they use a syphon type injector which will pull air in with the fuel at the same time to help better atomize it. Tryin' to keep a 30 gallon tank in your car would be just worthless, you may as well pull a sepperate diesel engine on a trailer with a straiffing supercharger used on naval 2-stroke diesel engines to force air into the engine. --Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian P Posted September 8, 2004 Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 DOLT!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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